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if you write about you know i've written

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about caesar i've written about anthony

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cleopatra alexander the great

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you'll never quite know what someone

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else was thinking

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when they do something the danger is

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that you create

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an image of what you think caesar was

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like or cleopatra was like

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and then when you come to a gap in the

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source you

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fill it in with well this is what my

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caesar would have done

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that's a clip from today's guest dr

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adrian goldsworthy

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who is a very excellent and legitimate

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historian i mean

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phd oxford many many books

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fellowships awards recognized

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historian and since i've been splashing

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around in those waters a lot lately i

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thought it'd

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be good to talk to a real expert and

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you know that's really the roots of this

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show all along

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if you want to know about something you

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have to be willing to seek out

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and talk to the experts and talk to

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experts who have varying opinions

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because as we found out there still

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are a lot of bullshitters out there

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take for example this little bit of

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history has portrayed

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in a bbc documentary about the romans

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and their sacking of judea what's going

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on titus

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well they're tough general i'm running

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on water

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supplies men are tired

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we can't beat this bunch we might as

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well give up it's been 47 days now

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damn it that's how long the general said

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it would last

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i got it from one of the prisoners i

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heard

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i realize that i've kind of obsessed on

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this tiny little bit of history here

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but i'm going to have to go over it one

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more time in order for that clip to make

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sense

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because what they claim to be depicting

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there

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is vespasian and his son both of whom go

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on to be

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caesar's emperors of rome and their

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sacking of judea

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and they're referring to josephus

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who is the prisoner who has prophesied

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all this stuff

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but here's the thing and here's always

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been the thing

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what i care about and why i was so

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excited to have this

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interview with dr goldsworthy and really

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dig into the nuts and bolts of how

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history

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is done is that just like bad

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science we have to be able to spot

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bad history and in particular history

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like this that has

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just unbelievably huge ramifications for

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our culture because we are whether we're

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christian or jewish or muslim

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or even if we're not religious but

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enmeshed in the western

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christian-centered culture this

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history is fundamental to understanding

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who we are and if the people who are

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doing this history

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are not doing it right and are not able

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to sort out

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and see through what might be a

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deception for very understandable

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political reasons

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then we're likely to really run afoul

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when we start

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trying to figure out what this history

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means

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for these big pictures skeptico

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who are we why are we here

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kind of questions so with that let me

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play uh

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another extended clip that kind of gets

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at

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when it comes to how history is

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sometimes

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done that is one of my frustrations

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again

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coming in to this from the outside being

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kind of a science and a tech guy

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and going into your world and like i got

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very interested in josephus and i still

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am very interested in josephus but i'm

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also interested in the parapolitical

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and i read the jewish war and i read

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okay this is propaganda literature

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we shouldn't trust anything that he says

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really we

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he has one agenda and then i look at the

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historians

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and they're using this source and

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they're there it's the old analogy of

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you know i lost

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my keys in the parking lot but i'm going

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to look over here under the

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the street light because the light is

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better it's like you're not going to

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find it there

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this is one of my favorite and this is a

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highly regarded highly respected

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josephus expert and historian who writes

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claims to quote unquote want to

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make a broadly post-colonial perspective

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on hybrid identities of insiderness

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outsiderness when revisiting josephus

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and i'm like okay but don't you have to

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start with

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what was his motivation what was his

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agenda what is he telling us and how

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does that conform with

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what we know about how the history plays

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out

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exactly i mean it's when i was doing my

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doctorate they were trans

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only a section but some of the the

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faculty was trying to put all this

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post-modern

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narcological thought on to us that was

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was clearly nonsense

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you know and it was this assumption that

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there is no reality therefore

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all the treaties are stories that's all

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they are i never quite understood how

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someone felt that they would then

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there was a good reason for anybody to

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pay them to do this

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if they were saying it's all nonsense

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but i'm going to tell you some stories

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about it and my reality is as good as

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yours you know it is

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nonsense and the thing with josephus is

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so we cover a lot of ground

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on this interview with dr adrian

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goldsworthy who is by the way

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fantastic guest went all over the map

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when i took him in all sorts of

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different

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places that he probably doesn't normally

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go and he just handled it all

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because like all thinkers of any

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substance they don't mind being pushed a

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little bit being

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challenged with tough questions in fact

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it's my experience that they love it

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because they love

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thinking outside of the box so this

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turned out to be

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an interview that i really really

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enjoyed i had to prepare for it a lot

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because

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i really don't know that much about

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history

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but i enjoyed every second of it i hope

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you

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do too welcome to skeptica where we

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explore controversial science and

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spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics

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i'm your host alex sacaris and today we

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welcome

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dr adrian goldsworthy to skeptico

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so this being a show primarily about

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science

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consciousness and spirituality we don't

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have many opportunities to interview

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top-notch historians

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but we certainly have won today

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dr adrian goldsworthy is a super

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impressive guy

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doctor at oxford research fellowship

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cardiff

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assistant professor university of notre

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dame the one in london not the one in

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south bend indiana

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and then there are the books really

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quite amazing but also very

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readable books on roman history

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roman warfare his specialty some novels

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thrown in there

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as well but many many about all these

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famous roman figures that we

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i don't know still feel so close to and

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they feel so relevant in

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our lives so one other thing i just want

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to mention

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check this out a lot of these books can

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be read for free

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on kindle unlimited if you are so

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inclined but what a great

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great opportunity you can buy them too

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i'm sure

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uh adrian would appreciate that but you

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know what he makes

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he makes a little bit of dough if you

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just read them on unlimited as well so

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that's there and just an amazing amazing

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body of work that

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is ever increasing because this guy is

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really high quality but he's also

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prolific

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so dr boldsworthy it's absolutely

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terrific to have you with us today

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thanks so much for joining me thank you

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for inviting me

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so as i mentioned you know ancient

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history is really

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out of my swing zone but i think i

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like so many people who read your

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fantastic

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books are fascinated with the romans

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fascinated with this history

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when did that fascination kind of

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come to life for you when i was very

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young really it's part of it was seeing

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some of the old epic movies on the on

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the television you know every

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every christmas or easter holiday bbc

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would be showing spartacus or

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uh quovardis or one of these things and

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um

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i started to get books about the romans

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and there'd be this insufferable little

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child who was telling you what was wrong

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with all the equipment and things they

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were wearing

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but it helped where i grew up grew up

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and where i live now there's a

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remains as a roman amphitheater remains

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of a roman army base

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25 miles away so this was it felt like

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my history i could go and crawl over the

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stones the romans left behind

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and that always made it history in

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general just just fascinates me and i

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can

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go anywhere or see a book about anything

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and easily get distracted and think oh

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wow that's

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interesting and my tendency is always to

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read a lot on

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on anything i start if i become

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interested so i'm easily distracted but

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there's something about the romans that

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i i

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return to all the time because apart

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from their influence

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on western culture there's so many

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things we refer to

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that have a roman origin but we don't

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necessarily realize it so finding out

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why we do this why we say that um why we

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write stories that way these sorts of

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things

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are all interesting but the in the end

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you can say about the romans the one

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thing they never were was dull

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so even though you wouldn't necessarily

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want to have them living next door to

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you or the roman empire out there today

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it's very exciting stuff it's

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interesting it's dramatic it's

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it's over the top sometimes it's

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appalling but it's never

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never dull so um after all these years

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00:09:56,150 --> 00:09:54,399
of studying it full time it

287
00:09:58,470 --> 00:09:56,160
still absolutely fascinates me and i'm

288
00:10:00,710 --> 00:09:58,480
still learning lots of new things so

289
00:10:02,230 --> 00:10:00,720
um i you know i can't see the

290
00:10:02,790 --> 00:10:02,240
fascination going away it's just nice

291
00:10:06,150 --> 00:10:02,800
that

292
00:10:08,069 --> 00:10:06,160
i think it as i say a lot of people it's

293
00:10:10,069 --> 00:10:08,079
you hear something or you read something

294
00:10:12,389 --> 00:10:10,079
and then it'll spark a memory

295
00:10:13,910 --> 00:10:12,399
so i remember being in a um we're doing

296
00:10:15,670 --> 00:10:13,920
some filming once and chatting to one of

297
00:10:17,110 --> 00:10:15,680
the cameramen who said oh so what's this

298
00:10:18,949 --> 00:10:17,120
you know crossing the rubicon what does

299
00:10:20,310 --> 00:10:18,959
that mean because it had come up in what

300
00:10:21,910 --> 00:10:20,320
we were filming so talking about that

301
00:10:24,150 --> 00:10:21,920
and it was just oh yeah that's

302
00:10:25,990 --> 00:10:24,160
so it's it's there it's sort of lurking

303
00:10:28,069 --> 00:10:26,000
in the shadows and it's it's just more

304
00:10:29,509 --> 00:10:28,079
interesting when you know more

305
00:10:32,069 --> 00:10:29,519
you know that is such an interesting

306
00:10:33,430 --> 00:10:32,079
point because i do think we all have

307
00:10:35,269 --> 00:10:33,440
this sense that we're looking

308
00:10:37,910 --> 00:10:35,279
into the mirror when we look at the

309
00:10:40,550 --> 00:10:37,920
romans but at the same time

310
00:10:41,990 --> 00:10:40,560
is that overblown do you think sometimes

311
00:10:43,509 --> 00:10:42,000
i think this is something you

312
00:10:46,630 --> 00:10:43,519
wrestled with a little bit in your

313
00:10:48,550 --> 00:10:46,640
writing is that are we sometimes

314
00:10:49,829 --> 00:10:48,560
prone to draw too many parallels too

315
00:10:53,269 --> 00:10:49,839
many

316
00:10:54,150 --> 00:10:53,279
links i always try to write the history

317
00:10:55,590 --> 00:10:54,160
and not go in

318
00:10:57,670 --> 00:10:55,600
saying this is going to give us lessons

319
00:10:59,670 --> 00:10:57,680
for today i think in some cases there

320
00:11:01,350 --> 00:10:59,680
are lessons for today but

321
00:11:03,590 --> 00:11:01,360
if you go looking for something you will

322
00:11:05,350 --> 00:11:03,600
find it in the sources

323
00:11:07,030 --> 00:11:05,360
consciously or unconsciously you will

324
00:11:08,150 --> 00:11:07,040
see things that way it's much better to

325
00:11:09,829 --> 00:11:08,160
try and see well

326
00:11:11,269 --> 00:11:09,839
what is it we actually know and with the

327
00:11:12,230 --> 00:11:11,279
ancient world so often what's it we

328
00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:12,240
don't know

329
00:11:16,550 --> 00:11:14,800
because so much material has been lost

330
00:11:18,630 --> 00:11:16,560
and that's particularly true

331
00:11:20,230 --> 00:11:18,640
of many of the sort of what would have

332
00:11:22,870 --> 00:11:20,240
been a natural assumption

333
00:11:24,949 --> 00:11:22,880
for a roman though again what does it

334
00:11:26,470 --> 00:11:24,959
mean to be a roman this empire was vast

335
00:11:28,230 --> 00:11:26,480
it lasted a long time

336
00:11:30,069 --> 00:11:28,240
roman citizenship is really a legal

337
00:11:30,949 --> 00:11:30,079
status there are people from all over

338
00:11:33,670 --> 00:11:30,959
the world

339
00:11:35,509 --> 00:11:33,680
with and you weren't expected to conform

340
00:11:37,030 --> 00:11:35,519
in every aspect of your life

341
00:11:38,630 --> 00:11:37,040
um so that you know it's quite

342
00:11:42,870 --> 00:11:38,640
interesting when um

343
00:11:44,470 --> 00:11:42,880
you look at um pliny who had

344
00:11:45,829 --> 00:11:44,480
arrested christians brought before him

345
00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:45,839
and there's this famous letter where he

346
00:11:49,350 --> 00:11:46,240
writes

347
00:11:50,230 --> 00:11:49,360
this is what i've been doing is this the

348
00:11:52,389 --> 00:11:50,240
right thing and

349
00:11:54,150 --> 00:11:52,399
i get the emperor's reply and part of it

350
00:11:55,509 --> 00:11:54,160
is as far as he was concerned they

351
00:11:57,110 --> 00:11:55,519
should have just lied said i don't

352
00:11:58,230 --> 00:11:57,120
believe that and gone their way and

353
00:12:00,069 --> 00:11:58,240
nobody would have cared what they were

354
00:12:02,389 --> 00:12:00,079
doing in their private life

355
00:12:03,990 --> 00:12:02,399
it's but it's this very roman thing when

356
00:12:05,430 --> 00:12:04,000
authority says to you this is what you

357
00:12:06,150 --> 00:12:05,440
should do you must do it you must

358
00:12:08,870 --> 00:12:06,160
conform but

359
00:12:10,629 --> 00:12:08,880
most of the time you know you have all

360
00:12:11,670 --> 00:12:10,639
these people around the the empire who

361
00:12:14,949 --> 00:12:11,680
are roman

362
00:12:16,790 --> 00:12:14,959
but who um sorry the cat is just trying

363
00:12:17,670 --> 00:12:16,800
to destroy something very nicely on the

364
00:12:19,110 --> 00:12:17,680
floor but

365
00:12:20,710 --> 00:12:19,120
hopefully it's not being picked up i'm

366
00:12:24,230 --> 00:12:20,720
not just some wrapping paper

367
00:12:26,310 --> 00:12:24,240
um they weren't it wasn't

368
00:12:27,829 --> 00:12:26,320
a one-size-fits-all society but there

369
00:12:30,069 --> 00:12:27,839
were some things we were supposed to

370
00:12:33,350 --> 00:12:30,079
share with everyone else but

371
00:12:35,509 --> 00:12:33,360
i believe that human nature hasn't

372
00:12:37,670 --> 00:12:35,519
changed over the millennia i think human

373
00:12:39,269 --> 00:12:37,680
beings are essentially the same

374
00:12:40,870 --> 00:12:39,279
yes different cultures have different

375
00:12:42,790 --> 00:12:40,880
assumptions different languages even

376
00:12:45,430 --> 00:12:42,800
make you think in different ways

377
00:12:47,190 --> 00:12:45,440
and there are you know i'm getting the

378
00:12:49,030 --> 00:12:47,200
stage in my life where with a

379
00:12:50,310 --> 00:12:49,040
a young son of seven i'm seeing things

380
00:12:52,230 --> 00:12:50,320
that are very different

381
00:12:53,430 --> 00:12:52,240
for him growing up compared to my day

382
00:12:54,949 --> 00:12:53,440
you know the idea

383
00:12:56,870 --> 00:12:54,959
that if anyone had told me when i was

384
00:12:58,069 --> 00:12:56,880
seven that all telephones would no

385
00:12:59,350 --> 00:12:58,079
longer be plugged into the wall and

386
00:13:01,990 --> 00:12:59,360
would have a camera in them

387
00:13:02,710 --> 00:13:02,000
you know so there's there's lots of

388
00:13:05,670 --> 00:13:02,720
different stuff but

389
00:13:05,990 --> 00:13:05,680
basically human emotions human behavior

390
00:13:09,829 --> 00:13:06,000
so

391
00:13:10,150 --> 00:13:09,839
themselves not necessarily identically

392
00:13:13,509 --> 00:13:10,160
but

393
00:13:14,949 --> 00:13:13,519
similarly enough and really if it wasn't

394
00:13:16,629 --> 00:13:14,959
like that we wouldn't be able to write

395
00:13:18,629 --> 00:13:16,639
history at all because if the romans

396
00:13:21,509 --> 00:13:18,639
were completely alien

397
00:13:22,949 --> 00:13:21,519
then you wouldn't read cicero and read

398
00:13:24,310 --> 00:13:22,959
one of his letters where he's

399
00:13:26,310 --> 00:13:24,320
you know he's deeply upset by the death

400
00:13:27,750 --> 00:13:26,320
of his daughter or he's worried about

401
00:13:29,509 --> 00:13:27,760
family things there are very

402
00:13:31,030 --> 00:13:29,519
alongside all the politics alongside the

403
00:13:33,350 --> 00:13:31,040
assumptions that they make

404
00:13:34,150 --> 00:13:33,360
about the world that are very different

405
00:13:36,230 --> 00:13:34,160
to us

406
00:13:38,310 --> 00:13:36,240
they're people deep down they've got

407
00:13:39,590 --> 00:13:38,320
those same emotions the same biological

408
00:13:41,750 --> 00:13:39,600
things there that are

409
00:13:42,629 --> 00:13:41,760
driving them so they're they are a lot

410
00:13:45,430 --> 00:13:42,639
like us

411
00:13:46,790 --> 00:13:45,440
i i think that's so fascinating in so

412
00:13:49,269 --> 00:13:46,800
many ways and it

413
00:13:51,750 --> 00:13:49,279
kind of leads into a lot of the things

414
00:13:53,110 --> 00:13:51,760
that i did want to ask you about today

415
00:13:55,990 --> 00:13:53,120
because i think

416
00:13:57,189 --> 00:13:56,000
you know history as an academic

417
00:13:59,990 --> 00:13:57,199
discipline

418
00:14:02,870 --> 00:14:00,000
is in a very curious state and has been

419
00:14:06,069 --> 00:14:02,880
for a while and i find your books

420
00:14:08,629 --> 00:14:06,079
subtly subversive in some interesting

421
00:14:10,389 --> 00:14:08,639
little ways and one of the ways

422
00:14:12,069 --> 00:14:10,399
is what you just talked about in terms

423
00:14:15,030 --> 00:14:12,079
of the human factor

424
00:14:16,150 --> 00:14:15,040
and you bring that to life in an

425
00:14:18,629 --> 00:14:16,160
undeniable way

426
00:14:20,389 --> 00:14:18,639
so let's just touch on something the

427
00:14:22,150 --> 00:14:20,399
great man theory

428
00:14:23,590 --> 00:14:22,160
what is it what do you think about it

429
00:14:27,030 --> 00:14:23,600
and what do you think

430
00:14:29,350 --> 00:14:27,040
your books tell us about that

431
00:14:30,150 --> 00:14:29,360
it's been the trend in in academia for a

432
00:14:32,310 --> 00:14:30,160
long time

433
00:14:33,509 --> 00:14:32,320
to deny this at all everything has to be

434
00:14:35,509 --> 00:14:33,519
the cause of

435
00:14:37,590 --> 00:14:35,519
much wider trends you know their social

436
00:14:40,150 --> 00:14:37,600
trends their economic their

437
00:14:42,069 --> 00:14:40,160
technological in terms of how does say

438
00:14:44,310 --> 00:14:42,079
the printing press and its development

439
00:14:45,189 --> 00:14:44,320
change the way people act and think how

440
00:14:47,750 --> 00:14:45,199
the population

441
00:14:50,230 --> 00:14:47,760
size is or the ability to produce food

442
00:14:51,750 --> 00:14:50,240
to produce other goods

443
00:14:53,910 --> 00:14:51,760
and all of that i'm not denying its

444
00:14:55,829 --> 00:14:53,920
importance in any way whatsoever

445
00:14:57,189 --> 00:14:55,839
but what's always striking is if you

446
00:14:58,710 --> 00:14:57,199
you've sat with the same people in the

447
00:15:00,629 --> 00:14:58,720
common room at a university

448
00:15:02,310 --> 00:15:00,639
when they talked about politics whether

449
00:15:02,710 --> 00:15:02,320
it's politics within the departments

450
00:15:04,230 --> 00:15:02,720
which

451
00:15:06,150 --> 00:15:04,240
often in universities are fairly

452
00:15:08,629 --> 00:15:06,160
viciously waged

453
00:15:10,310 --> 00:15:08,639
compared to what's happening at state

454
00:15:10,710 --> 00:15:10,320
level national level whatever it might

455
00:15:12,310 --> 00:15:10,720
be

456
00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:12,320
they talk about personalities all the

457
00:15:16,150 --> 00:15:14,800
time and they don't talk so much about

458
00:15:17,670 --> 00:15:16,160
well of course this is the trend and

459
00:15:20,150 --> 00:15:17,680
everybody must do this

460
00:15:21,189 --> 00:15:20,160
um in our in our lives you know you

461
00:15:24,150 --> 00:15:21,199
notice

462
00:15:26,310 --> 00:15:24,160
um there are people who may be in

463
00:15:28,790 --> 00:15:26,320
positions of authority whatever that is

464
00:15:29,590 --> 00:15:28,800
in a small you know a club a society a

465
00:15:32,310 --> 00:15:29,600
church

466
00:15:33,189 --> 00:15:32,320
um a department at a business or

467
00:15:35,590 --> 00:15:33,199
whatever

468
00:15:37,030 --> 00:15:35,600
and their personality affects everybody

469
00:15:39,189 --> 00:15:37,040
around them and sometimes the people who

470
00:15:40,710 --> 00:15:39,199
aren't officially in charge but have

471
00:15:42,949 --> 00:15:40,720
big personalities or a particular

472
00:15:45,829 --> 00:15:42,959
influence influence the way

473
00:15:47,350 --> 00:15:45,839
others behave it's it's obvious as soon

474
00:15:49,350 --> 00:15:47,360
as you look at life it's obvious as soon

475
00:15:52,069 --> 00:15:49,360
as you look at your own experience

476
00:15:52,870 --> 00:15:52,079
and there are the people who make a big

477
00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:52,880
difference

478
00:15:55,990 --> 00:15:54,480
it doesn't even fall just in one

479
00:15:57,990 --> 00:15:56,000
category i mean if we want to

480
00:15:59,030 --> 00:15:58,000
kind of be more expansive and more

481
00:16:00,710 --> 00:15:59,040
inclusive which

482
00:16:02,790 --> 00:16:00,720
hell why not you know we certainly have

483
00:16:05,749 --> 00:16:02,800
been less so in the past i mean

484
00:16:06,310 --> 00:16:05,759
it's not just julius caesar and augustus

485
00:16:11,110 --> 00:16:06,320
it's

486
00:16:13,189 --> 00:16:11,120
you know right down the list right

487
00:16:15,269 --> 00:16:13,199
spartacus right so it's

488
00:16:17,110 --> 00:16:15,279
i don't know why that why that we we

489
00:16:19,110 --> 00:16:17,120
push against that so much

490
00:16:20,230 --> 00:16:19,120
but i fear that it's kind of has some

491
00:16:21,990 --> 00:16:20,240
other bigger

492
00:16:23,430 --> 00:16:22,000
issues in terms of how we want to see

493
00:16:25,590 --> 00:16:23,440
ourselves in the world and how we want

494
00:16:27,990 --> 00:16:25,600
to see ourselves as less than human

495
00:16:29,189 --> 00:16:28,000
in some ways that that kind of conform

496
00:16:30,790 --> 00:16:29,199
to other ideas

497
00:16:32,470 --> 00:16:30,800
it is although when it you know when it

498
00:16:32,870 --> 00:16:32,480
comes down to it everybody lives their

499
00:16:35,749 --> 00:16:32,880
life

500
00:16:37,269 --> 00:16:35,759
as a biography um and they are you know

501
00:16:38,949 --> 00:16:37,279
they are very concerned about what

502
00:16:40,550 --> 00:16:38,959
affects them personally there are these

503
00:16:42,389 --> 00:16:40,560
altruistic people who say yeah this is

504
00:16:43,670 --> 00:16:42,399
bad for me but you know it's good for

505
00:16:46,069 --> 00:16:43,680
the country it's good for the wider

506
00:16:48,790 --> 00:16:46,079
population but most of us

507
00:16:49,189 --> 00:16:48,800
have that drive to to eat to feed to

508
00:16:51,269 --> 00:16:49,199
have

509
00:16:52,710 --> 00:16:51,279
what wealth we need the things we want

510
00:16:54,629 --> 00:16:52,720
um

511
00:16:56,310 --> 00:16:54,639
we don't so there has always been this

512
00:16:57,990 --> 00:16:56,320
contrast in that people can somehow

513
00:16:59,590 --> 00:16:58,000
divorce their actual lives and their

514
00:17:00,389 --> 00:16:59,600
experience from how they're studying

515
00:17:03,110 --> 00:17:00,399
history

516
00:17:04,470 --> 00:17:03,120
and again it's there is a great danger

517
00:17:05,829 --> 00:17:04,480
if you write about

518
00:17:06,949 --> 00:17:05,839
you know i've written about caesar i've

519
00:17:08,789 --> 00:17:06,959
written about anthony cleopatra

520
00:17:10,230 --> 00:17:08,799
alexander the great

521
00:17:11,669 --> 00:17:10,240
particularly in the ancient world but

522
00:17:13,510 --> 00:17:11,679
some extent even in the modern world

523
00:17:14,949 --> 00:17:13,520
you'll never quite know what someone

524
00:17:17,350 --> 00:17:14,959
else was thinking

525
00:17:18,789 --> 00:17:17,360
when they do something and the extent to

526
00:17:20,230 --> 00:17:18,799
which they are thinking rationally or

527
00:17:22,309 --> 00:17:20,240
they've just got up they've

528
00:17:23,909 --> 00:17:22,319
you know they've had a bad cold the last

529
00:17:25,590 --> 00:17:23,919
few days they don't feel well they're

530
00:17:26,390 --> 00:17:25,600
still sleeping they say go and do this

531
00:17:28,390 --> 00:17:26,400
to someone

532
00:17:30,230 --> 00:17:28,400
and in most for most of us what we say

533
00:17:31,510 --> 00:17:30,240
doesn't matter but for some people out

534
00:17:33,270 --> 00:17:31,520
there it really does

535
00:17:34,710 --> 00:17:33,280
because they they have their impositions

536
00:17:37,750 --> 00:17:34,720
of authority

537
00:17:38,789 --> 00:17:37,760
the danger is that you create an image

538
00:17:41,590 --> 00:17:38,799
of what you think

539
00:17:43,350 --> 00:17:41,600
caesar was like or cleopatra was like

540
00:17:44,230 --> 00:17:43,360
and then when you come to a gap in the

541
00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:44,240
source

542
00:17:48,230 --> 00:17:46,720
you fill it in with well this is what my

543
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:48,240
caesar would have done

544
00:17:52,390 --> 00:17:50,400
and i try always to avoid that but in

545
00:17:54,390 --> 00:17:52,400
the end you have to think

546
00:17:55,669 --> 00:17:54,400
it's rather like um you know a big

547
00:17:57,990 --> 00:17:55,679
contrast is the way it's made between

548
00:17:59,909 --> 00:17:58,000
julius caesar and caesar augustus

549
00:18:01,430 --> 00:17:59,919
the one gets murdered spectacularly on

550
00:18:02,870 --> 00:18:01,440
the ides of march stabbed to death by

551
00:18:03,669 --> 00:18:02,880
brutus and cassius all this sort of

552
00:18:05,669 --> 00:18:03,679
thing

553
00:18:07,270 --> 00:18:05,679
augustus becomes the first proper

554
00:18:09,430 --> 00:18:07,280
emperor creates the principate this

555
00:18:11,350 --> 00:18:09,440
system that will last for centuries

556
00:18:12,710 --> 00:18:11,360
and the classic contrast is well of

557
00:18:13,990 --> 00:18:12,720
course you know this shows he's more

558
00:18:16,150 --> 00:18:14,000
politically savvy he

559
00:18:17,669 --> 00:18:16,160
understands he doesn't upset the senate

560
00:18:19,669 --> 00:18:17,679
and all this sort of thing

561
00:18:21,350 --> 00:18:19,679
until you actually look and then see

562
00:18:24,070 --> 00:18:21,360
that caesar is only in rome

563
00:18:25,830 --> 00:18:24,080
for barely half a year having fought

564
00:18:27,830 --> 00:18:25,840
civil war constantly

565
00:18:29,029 --> 00:18:27,840
and then is murdered and he's murdered

566
00:18:30,710 --> 00:18:29,039
by people who

567
00:18:32,230 --> 00:18:30,720
by the time you get to augustus they're

568
00:18:33,590 --> 00:18:32,240
all dead and most of the people who

569
00:18:33,909 --> 00:18:33,600
thought like i mean everyone's watched

570
00:18:37,990 --> 00:18:33,919
and

571
00:18:40,230 --> 00:18:38,000
act that way augustus has

572
00:18:41,669 --> 00:18:40,240
decades you know he lives far longer

573
00:18:43,270 --> 00:18:41,679
than anyone expects

574
00:18:44,870 --> 00:18:43,280
and he survives and he doesn't have to

575
00:18:45,510 --> 00:18:44,880
keep fighting civil war you know it's a

576
00:18:48,310 --> 00:18:45,520
different

577
00:18:49,830 --> 00:18:48,320
so you're comparing but if you look and

578
00:18:51,029 --> 00:18:49,840
look chronologically look at what

579
00:18:53,990 --> 00:18:51,039
caesar's actually doing

580
00:18:55,270 --> 00:18:54,000
where he is what he was doing then all

581
00:18:56,310 --> 00:18:55,280
these ideas well he should have thought

582
00:18:57,190 --> 00:18:56,320
of a solution to this he should have

583
00:18:58,870 --> 00:18:57,200
done that you know

584
00:19:01,190 --> 00:18:58,880
i didn't have the time it's like

585
00:19:03,750 --> 00:19:01,200
alexander the great dreaming that he was

586
00:19:05,430 --> 00:19:03,760
planning this great society this great

587
00:19:06,230 --> 00:19:05,440
new empire that would do this and do

588
00:19:08,470 --> 00:19:06,240
that

589
00:19:10,470 --> 00:19:08,480
what he's actually doing he's riding

590
00:19:12,310 --> 00:19:10,480
marching on foot traveling

591
00:19:14,070 --> 00:19:12,320
sleeping under canvas fighting lots of

592
00:19:15,430 --> 00:19:14,080
battles for nearly all his life he

593
00:19:17,830 --> 00:19:15,440
doesn't have a lot of time

594
00:19:18,789 --> 00:19:17,840
and in that sort of situation those more

595
00:19:20,710 --> 00:19:18,799
immediate

596
00:19:22,230 --> 00:19:20,720
factors like the people trying to kill

597
00:19:25,110 --> 00:19:22,240
you will probably

598
00:19:27,110 --> 00:19:25,120
fill your mind to a degree that um any

599
00:19:27,909 --> 00:19:27,120
of us know when we're really busy doing

600
00:19:29,990 --> 00:19:27,919
something

601
00:19:31,430 --> 00:19:30,000
the abstract thoughts don't really come

602
00:19:32,950 --> 00:19:31,440
and you know

603
00:19:34,630 --> 00:19:32,960
the more simply you're having to live if

604
00:19:35,830 --> 00:19:34,640
you're struggling to stay warm at night

605
00:19:37,110 --> 00:19:35,840
because you're you're camping and the

606
00:19:38,710 --> 00:19:37,120
weather's turned bad and you're getting

607
00:19:39,669 --> 00:19:38,720
enough to eat the event you want to file

608
00:19:41,430 --> 00:19:39,679
it

609
00:19:42,870 --> 00:19:41,440
those things stop you thinking

610
00:19:44,870 --> 00:19:42,880
necessarily it might clear your mind and

611
00:19:46,630 --> 00:19:44,880
you might come back from that trip

612
00:19:49,669 --> 00:19:46,640
it's so easy to turn these people into

613
00:19:51,190 --> 00:19:49,679
some merely representatives of ideas

614
00:19:53,350 --> 00:19:51,200
and not flesh and blood human beings

615
00:19:55,350 --> 00:19:53,360
that tend to be complicated and often

616
00:19:57,029 --> 00:19:55,360
are contradictory and often might say

617
00:19:58,150 --> 00:19:57,039
i believe this that and the other but

618
00:20:00,070 --> 00:19:58,160
there are aspects of their life where

619
00:20:01,669 --> 00:20:00,080
they don't quite live up to that because

620
00:20:03,669 --> 00:20:01,679
we're all human we all make mistakes

621
00:20:05,270 --> 00:20:03,679
we're all flawed um

622
00:20:06,870 --> 00:20:05,280
and many of us will you know can easily

623
00:20:07,990 --> 00:20:06,880
convince ourselves that well it's okay

624
00:20:10,710 --> 00:20:08,000
if i do that

625
00:20:12,310 --> 00:20:10,720
so it's trying to make that history

626
00:20:13,830 --> 00:20:12,320
human if it isn't human then i don't

627
00:20:16,549 --> 00:20:13,840
think it's really history

628
00:20:18,310 --> 00:20:16,559
it becomes just abstract ideas that

629
00:20:19,750 --> 00:20:18,320
might be very clever

630
00:20:21,510 --> 00:20:19,760
but probably have little basis in

631
00:20:24,149 --> 00:20:21,520
reality awesome

632
00:20:25,669 --> 00:20:24,159
i love all that and i i would also wrap

633
00:20:27,350 --> 00:20:25,679
it into something you just talked about

634
00:20:29,830 --> 00:20:27,360
but i love the way you put it here

635
00:20:31,029 --> 00:20:29,840
hindsight is the enemy of history and i

636
00:20:33,029 --> 00:20:31,039
think maybe you want to

637
00:20:34,310 --> 00:20:33,039
expound on that just a little bit in

638
00:20:35,909 --> 00:20:34,320
terms of no matter

639
00:20:38,470 --> 00:20:35,919
how straight you're trying to play it as

640
00:20:41,590 --> 00:20:38,480
a historian it's really really hard

641
00:20:42,950 --> 00:20:41,600
not to fall into that trap isn't it well

642
00:20:45,350 --> 00:20:42,960
it is i mean that was the really the

643
00:20:47,270 --> 00:20:45,360
idea behind the the philip and alexander

644
00:20:48,950 --> 00:20:47,280
the great book that i i did a couple

645
00:20:51,750 --> 00:20:48,960
years ago and that's

646
00:20:53,270 --> 00:20:51,760
um alexander the great's famous we all

647
00:20:54,310 --> 00:20:53,280
know coming to this story this is what

648
00:20:55,909 --> 00:20:54,320
he's going to do

649
00:20:57,350 --> 00:20:55,919
you know he's going to come king very

650
00:20:59,110 --> 00:20:57,360
young charge off

651
00:21:00,549 --> 00:20:59,120
go and conquer and end up in india and

652
00:21:01,990 --> 00:21:00,559
then you know on his way back

653
00:21:03,669 --> 00:21:02,000
we forget about all the things his

654
00:21:06,390 --> 00:21:03,679
father had to do before he got there

655
00:21:07,990 --> 00:21:06,400
and we also forget how brief this career

656
00:21:09,029 --> 00:21:08,000
was and that there were plenty of people

657
00:21:11,750 --> 00:21:09,039
alive

658
00:21:13,190 --> 00:21:11,760
when alexander died who could remember a

659
00:21:15,190 --> 00:21:13,200
time before his father

660
00:21:16,630 --> 00:21:15,200
which was a time before macedonia

661
00:21:20,230 --> 00:21:16,640
mattered

662
00:21:21,830 --> 00:21:20,240
and you know they macedonia was a

663
00:21:23,510 --> 00:21:21,840
nowhere place you know it really wasn't

664
00:21:25,350 --> 00:21:23,520
this military superpower that it became

665
00:21:27,430 --> 00:21:25,360
in an incredibly short time

666
00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:27,440
and sometimes i was just reading a novel

667
00:21:29,990 --> 00:21:28,480
um

668
00:21:32,390 --> 00:21:30,000
just in the last few weeks that was

669
00:21:33,430 --> 00:21:32,400
published in 1942 so in the middle of

670
00:21:35,430 --> 00:21:33,440
the second world war

671
00:21:37,430 --> 00:21:35,440
and it's about somebody in the british

672
00:21:38,470 --> 00:21:37,440
army up until the evacuation from

673
00:21:39,909 --> 00:21:38,480
dunkirk

674
00:21:41,190 --> 00:21:39,919
and it's all the sort of the first nine

675
00:21:42,390 --> 00:21:41,200
months of the war the phony war when

676
00:21:44,070 --> 00:21:42,400
they go to france

677
00:21:45,909 --> 00:21:44,080
expecting to re-fight the first world

678
00:21:47,590 --> 00:21:45,919
war

679
00:21:49,110 --> 00:21:47,600
and the problem and even within those

680
00:21:50,470 --> 00:21:49,120
two years he's writing he said well

681
00:21:52,070 --> 00:21:50,480
people don't remember this you know

682
00:21:55,190 --> 00:21:52,080
saying they're talking about this as if

683
00:21:57,110 --> 00:21:55,200
somehow we were all stupid but everybody

684
00:21:58,549 --> 00:21:57,120
was expecting things to be like last

685
00:22:00,149 --> 00:21:58,559
time there was no reason to believe it

686
00:22:01,750 --> 00:22:00,159
hadn't happened yet

687
00:22:03,669 --> 00:22:01,760
and that's even in you know somebody's

688
00:22:05,270 --> 00:22:03,679
lifetime you can often see how quickly

689
00:22:07,190 --> 00:22:05,280
we come to accept

690
00:22:09,750 --> 00:22:07,200
um you know we've still got quite tight

691
00:22:13,029 --> 00:22:09,760
lockdown rules here in the uk

692
00:22:15,029 --> 00:22:13,039
this is a year and a bit on ask somebody

693
00:22:16,549 --> 00:22:15,039
at christmas 2019 whether they thought

694
00:22:18,149 --> 00:22:16,559
this could happen

695
00:22:19,590 --> 00:22:18,159
and would people put up with this they

696
00:22:20,950 --> 00:22:19,600
would probably have said no but it

697
00:22:22,789 --> 00:22:20,960
you quickly become used to it and the

698
00:22:23,669 --> 00:22:22,799
danger is once you know that's what

699
00:22:25,590 --> 00:22:23,679
happens you

700
00:22:28,070 --> 00:22:25,600
tend to make it inevitable and you're

701
00:22:31,350 --> 00:22:28,080
looking for reasons to explain

702
00:22:32,950 --> 00:22:31,360
why this happened which means you forget

703
00:22:34,710 --> 00:22:32,960
the random chance you know i mean

704
00:22:35,830 --> 00:22:34,720
famously even shakespeare picked it up

705
00:22:37,270 --> 00:22:35,840
from plutarch with

706
00:22:39,029 --> 00:22:37,280
with julius caesar had he actually

707
00:22:40,549 --> 00:22:39,039
listened to the warnings of don't go to

708
00:22:42,470 --> 00:22:40,559
the senate today

709
00:22:43,990 --> 00:22:42,480
what's gonna he's about to leave rome in

710
00:22:45,590 --> 00:22:44,000
three days time for big campaign not

711
00:22:47,990 --> 00:22:45,600
come back for years so

712
00:22:49,590 --> 00:22:48,000
um and the sheer chance that augustus

713
00:22:50,710 --> 00:22:49,600
survives these illnesses that are

714
00:22:52,149 --> 00:22:50,720
considered you know

715
00:22:54,549 --> 00:22:52,159
more than on at least one occasion he

716
00:22:56,549 --> 00:22:54,559
hands over his signet ring to a gripper

717
00:22:57,590 --> 00:22:56,559
he's expecting to die everybody believes

718
00:22:59,750 --> 00:22:57,600
he's going to die

719
00:23:00,630 --> 00:22:59,760
but he doesn't the flip side of that

720
00:23:03,990 --> 00:23:00,640
that you point out

721
00:23:06,230 --> 00:23:04,000
also is that we do have the advantage

722
00:23:07,510 --> 00:23:06,240
of knowing how things turn out and that

723
00:23:10,230 --> 00:23:07,520
can inform how we

724
00:23:11,110 --> 00:23:10,240
interpret these actions right so when

725
00:23:13,830 --> 00:23:11,120
augustus

726
00:23:15,830 --> 00:23:13,840
is they're gonna kind of prop him up and

727
00:23:17,350 --> 00:23:15,840
then kind of toss them aside once they

728
00:23:17,990 --> 00:23:17,360
get used to him because he's just a kid

729
00:23:21,110 --> 00:23:18,000
right

730
00:23:23,750 --> 00:23:21,120
but he he manages to become

731
00:23:25,029 --> 00:23:23,760
the great augustus and then i think we

732
00:23:27,270 --> 00:23:25,039
reflect back and we go

733
00:23:28,789 --> 00:23:27,280
that must have been there all along too

734
00:23:29,430 --> 00:23:28,799
as well and there's a there's a truth to

735
00:23:31,430 --> 00:23:29,440
that too

736
00:23:32,870 --> 00:23:31,440
so you got to play both sides of it

737
00:23:34,549 --> 00:23:32,880
don't you that's tricky

738
00:23:36,230 --> 00:23:34,559
oh certainly and i mean you know when

739
00:23:39,590 --> 00:23:36,240
somebody um

740
00:23:41,269 --> 00:23:39,600
becomes you know a great athlete

741
00:23:42,630 --> 00:23:41,279
wins the olympic gold wins there you

742
00:23:43,990 --> 00:23:42,640
know just started wimbledon the tennis

743
00:23:45,110 --> 00:23:44,000
tournament but you know you'll think oh

744
00:23:46,390 --> 00:23:45,120
well there's a sense that

745
00:23:47,990 --> 00:23:46,400
particularly if they do this more than

746
00:23:49,590 --> 00:23:48,000
once then there's obviously something

747
00:23:53,029 --> 00:23:49,600
with inside them

748
00:23:55,430 --> 00:23:53,039
that but there's also the sheer luck

749
00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:55,440
and that they don't get an injury early

750
00:23:57,990 --> 00:23:56,720
in their career that can

751
00:24:00,549 --> 00:23:58,000
you know somebody could be as promising

752
00:24:02,230 --> 00:24:00,559
as anything that goes

753
00:24:03,590 --> 00:24:02,240
something in their head starts you know

754
00:24:04,789 --> 00:24:03,600
they can't cope with the life with the

755
00:24:06,630 --> 00:24:04,799
pressure that could go

756
00:24:08,470 --> 00:24:06,640
it's clearly there with augustus but you

757
00:24:10,390 --> 00:24:08,480
can also that the hard thing is you need

758
00:24:11,430 --> 00:24:10,400
to remind yourself that it was perfectly

759
00:24:13,669 --> 00:24:11,440
reasonable

760
00:24:15,990 --> 00:24:13,679
for cicero to think you know praise the

761
00:24:17,909 --> 00:24:16,000
young man reward him discard him

762
00:24:20,149 --> 00:24:17,919
um anthony to think he's a boy who owes

763
00:24:22,870 --> 00:24:20,159
everything to a name because

764
00:24:24,390 --> 00:24:22,880
you know imagine some 19 year old turns

765
00:24:25,590 --> 00:24:24,400
up and say yeah i'm going to be

766
00:24:27,190 --> 00:24:25,600
ruler of the state you know i'm going to

767
00:24:28,630 --> 00:24:27,200
be the leading man in here never done

768
00:24:30,149 --> 00:24:28,640
anything in my life but i've you know

769
00:24:31,110 --> 00:24:30,159
just inherited all this money in this

770
00:24:33,190 --> 00:24:31,120
name

771
00:24:34,310 --> 00:24:33,200
you know you would react like that he he

772
00:24:37,110 --> 00:24:34,320
shouldn't win

773
00:24:39,430 --> 00:24:37,120
um so there's clearly there's that

774
00:24:40,870 --> 00:24:39,440
incredible self-confidence i mean i know

775
00:24:42,310 --> 00:24:40,880
a lot of people you know it's it's a

776
00:24:43,750 --> 00:24:42,320
natural thing when you're young you

777
00:24:44,789 --> 00:24:43,760
think you can do anything

778
00:24:46,950 --> 00:24:44,799
because you haven't had the

779
00:24:48,390 --> 00:24:46,960
disappointments yet but when you

780
00:24:51,750 --> 00:24:48,400
actually go on and do it

781
00:24:53,750 --> 00:24:51,760
and it's it's but it's it's luck as well

782
00:24:55,590 --> 00:24:53,760
as ability it's this combination

783
00:24:56,950 --> 00:24:55,600
and i i think perhaps particularly

784
00:24:58,470 --> 00:24:56,960
because i've

785
00:24:59,750 --> 00:24:58,480
i've said a lot of military history and

786
00:25:01,990 --> 00:24:59,760
that has been sort of my initial

787
00:25:05,510 --> 00:25:02,000
interest

788
00:25:08,470 --> 00:25:05,520
you can reduce military history to

789
00:25:09,269 --> 00:25:08,480
the the economic power the organization

790
00:25:11,269 --> 00:25:09,279
of

791
00:25:13,430 --> 00:25:11,279
one side against the other so that it

792
00:25:14,070 --> 00:25:13,440
becomes inevitable that the union would

793
00:25:16,230 --> 00:25:14,080
win the civil

794
00:25:17,510 --> 00:25:16,240
war it's inevitable that the allies

795
00:25:18,470 --> 00:25:17,520
particularly once america's entered the

796
00:25:20,789 --> 00:25:18,480
war in 1941

797
00:25:22,070 --> 00:25:20,799
are going to win but it sure didn't seem

798
00:25:23,430 --> 00:25:22,080
like that at the time

799
00:25:25,110 --> 00:25:23,440
and it could have gone wrong and people

800
00:25:26,710 --> 00:25:25,120
could have said look this is not worth

801
00:25:27,190 --> 00:25:26,720
it we might as well negotiate let's

802
00:25:30,310 --> 00:25:27,200
settle

803
00:25:32,630 --> 00:25:30,320
you know so narrative history

804
00:25:34,230 --> 00:25:32,640
is vital you you can't understand the

805
00:25:36,230 --> 00:25:34,240
confusion the chaos the

806
00:25:37,510 --> 00:25:36,240
the chance factor within battles as well

807
00:25:38,230 --> 00:25:37,520
as all the planning as well as all the

808
00:25:40,230 --> 00:25:38,240
preparation

809
00:25:41,669 --> 00:25:40,240
as well as the bigger social economic

810
00:25:42,870 --> 00:25:41,679
picture the organ all of that that

811
00:25:46,149 --> 00:25:42,880
matters

812
00:25:48,230 --> 00:25:46,159
but it all comes down to that the chance

813
00:25:51,029 --> 00:25:48,240
the confusion the chaos the

814
00:25:51,269 --> 00:25:51,039
and the bits you don't really understand

815
00:25:53,510 --> 00:25:51,279
and

816
00:25:54,950 --> 00:25:53,520
the danger is again that you you you see

817
00:25:56,470 --> 00:25:54,960
well that's what happened so everybody

818
00:25:57,830 --> 00:25:56,480
must have realized if you had any sense

819
00:25:59,110 --> 00:25:57,840
at all you must realize this is what's

820
00:26:01,510 --> 00:25:59,120
going to happen

821
00:26:02,310 --> 00:26:01,520
it you know again people's lives aren't

822
00:26:04,710 --> 00:26:02,320
like that

823
00:26:06,310 --> 00:26:04,720
and these great plans don't always work

824
00:26:08,310 --> 00:26:06,320
out

825
00:26:10,070 --> 00:26:08,320
i want to return for just a minute to

826
00:26:12,870 --> 00:26:10,080
the human factor issue

827
00:26:13,590 --> 00:26:12,880
because i have a kind of long way around

828
00:26:16,310 --> 00:26:13,600
the barn

829
00:26:17,909 --> 00:26:16,320
question indulge me but i recently

830
00:26:21,190 --> 00:26:17,919
interviewed a guy

831
00:26:23,830 --> 00:26:21,200
dr alexander almeida he's uh

832
00:26:26,310 --> 00:26:23,840
quite a prominent professor of

833
00:26:30,149 --> 00:26:26,320
psychiatry and a doctor down in brazil

834
00:26:32,710 --> 00:26:30,159
and he's also kind of a researcher

835
00:26:33,669 --> 00:26:32,720
on the intersection between medicine and

836
00:26:36,070 --> 00:26:33,679
spirituality

837
00:26:36,710 --> 00:26:36,080
and the kind of headline there from him

838
00:26:40,870 --> 00:26:36,720
is

839
00:26:43,990 --> 00:26:40,880
psychology

840
00:26:45,669 --> 00:26:44,000
have kind of grown up to the fact that

841
00:26:48,789 --> 00:26:45,679
spirituality and religion

842
00:26:49,350 --> 00:26:48,799
is just a reality it relates to our

843
00:26:51,590 --> 00:26:49,360
health

844
00:26:53,750 --> 00:26:51,600
in undeniable ways you know you're much

845
00:26:55,990 --> 00:26:53,760
more likely to be

846
00:26:57,830 --> 00:26:56,000
in better health less suicide rate live

847
00:26:59,830 --> 00:26:57,840
longer live happier all those things

848
00:27:01,350 --> 00:26:59,840
without attaching any meaning to that

849
00:27:02,630 --> 00:27:01,360
i'm not a religious person i'm not

850
00:27:05,750 --> 00:27:02,640
religious in any way

851
00:27:08,149 --> 00:27:05,760
but he's saying just follow the facts

852
00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:08,159
and that's where we go and that's where

853
00:27:11,909 --> 00:27:10,000
we have to go as a science and we have

854
00:27:14,149 --> 00:27:11,919
to understand that

855
00:27:16,549 --> 00:27:14,159
one of my frustrations is sometimes when

856
00:27:18,389 --> 00:27:16,559
i look at history as an academic

857
00:27:21,029 --> 00:27:18,399
discipline it looks like something

858
00:27:21,510 --> 00:27:21,039
written by atheists for atheists and

859
00:27:25,430 --> 00:27:21,520
don't

860
00:27:28,870 --> 00:27:25,440
ever go into anything else so

861
00:27:29,269 --> 00:27:28,880
i i love when you address that as you do

862
00:27:31,669 --> 00:27:29,279
when

863
00:27:33,190 --> 00:27:31,679
augustus closes the doors to the temple

864
00:27:36,070 --> 00:27:33,200
of janus

865
00:27:37,190 --> 00:27:36,080
what is he doing there is it just ritual

866
00:27:39,990 --> 00:27:37,200
it certainly

867
00:27:41,430 --> 00:27:40,000
seems self-serving to a certain extent

868
00:27:42,389 --> 00:27:41,440
calling peace you know when they're in

869
00:27:45,269 --> 00:27:42,399
the middle of war

870
00:27:46,710 --> 00:27:45,279
but at the same time it seems to be

871
00:27:49,750 --> 00:27:46,720
interwoven deeply

872
00:27:52,070 --> 00:27:49,760
in a spiritual belief system that he has

873
00:27:54,310 --> 00:27:52,080
and isn't that something we have to

874
00:27:54,950 --> 00:27:54,320
process as a part of this all as well

875
00:27:58,470 --> 00:27:54,960
and his

876
00:27:59,350 --> 00:27:58,480
history maybe have a little bit of

877
00:28:02,789 --> 00:27:59,360
myopia

878
00:28:06,230 --> 00:28:02,799
on the on the spirituality and religion

879
00:28:09,110 --> 00:28:06,240
factor it does because it's

880
00:28:09,830 --> 00:28:09,120
it's harder to quantify and it is not

881
00:28:11,190 --> 00:28:09,840
fashionable

882
00:28:14,070 --> 00:28:11,200
in academic circles you know you're

883
00:28:16,630 --> 00:28:14,080
expected to be sort of generally rather

884
00:28:17,909 --> 00:28:16,640
liberal in your political attitudes and

885
00:28:19,190 --> 00:28:17,919
skeptical of of

886
00:28:21,110 --> 00:28:19,200
religious belief because that's

887
00:28:22,710 --> 00:28:21,120
old-fashioned that's there are plenty of

888
00:28:23,350 --> 00:28:22,720
exceptions to that but that's the sort

889
00:28:25,430 --> 00:28:23,360
of the

890
00:28:27,110 --> 00:28:25,440
the default setting almost for most

891
00:28:29,510 --> 00:28:27,120
academics these days

892
00:28:31,669 --> 00:28:29,520
and it's a big problem because you know

893
00:28:32,870 --> 00:28:31,679
on the one hand even if

894
00:28:34,070 --> 00:28:32,880
you're not a christian or you're not

895
00:28:35,990 --> 00:28:34,080
jewish you don't believe any of these

896
00:28:38,789 --> 00:28:36,000
things if you try and study

897
00:28:40,789 --> 00:28:38,799
english literature history anything

898
00:28:42,870 --> 00:28:40,799
until almost the immediate past

899
00:28:44,789 --> 00:28:42,880
and you don't understand christianity

900
00:28:45,909 --> 00:28:44,799
and how important that can be to

901
00:28:47,430 --> 00:28:45,919
individual you are not going to

902
00:28:48,310 --> 00:28:47,440
understand why people did things you

903
00:28:50,149 --> 00:28:48,320
know you're not going to understand

904
00:28:51,830 --> 00:28:50,159
cromwell or the english civil war

905
00:28:53,510 --> 00:28:51,840
um you're not going to understand the

906
00:28:54,470 --> 00:28:53,520
enlightenment even when it's a reaction

907
00:28:57,350 --> 00:28:54,480
against

908
00:28:58,950 --> 00:28:57,360
aspects of formal religion nevertheless

909
00:29:01,909 --> 00:28:58,960
they're thinking in ways

910
00:29:03,669 --> 00:29:01,919
that are shaped by a moral sense that is

911
00:29:05,510 --> 00:29:03,679
shaped in turn by that

912
00:29:07,269 --> 00:29:05,520
and worse yet in the romans we can just

913
00:29:08,549 --> 00:29:07,279
throw the pagan term out there and then

914
00:29:11,510 --> 00:29:08,559
dismiss it entirely

915
00:29:12,230 --> 00:29:11,520
like that is somehow a lesser rich

916
00:29:15,269 --> 00:29:12,240
spiritual

917
00:29:16,870 --> 00:29:15,279
experience than our you know our

918
00:29:18,230 --> 00:29:16,880
experience well the interesting thing

919
00:29:19,029 --> 00:29:18,240
about the word is of course it means

920
00:29:21,269 --> 00:29:19,039
sort of you know

921
00:29:22,470 --> 00:29:21,279
country bumpkin it's it's rustic it's a

922
00:29:24,230 --> 00:29:22,480
you know the romans were

923
00:29:25,990 --> 00:29:24,240
in in the christian era dismissing

924
00:29:27,029 --> 00:29:26,000
people as just a bunch of hicks who

925
00:29:28,149 --> 00:29:27,039
didn't know anything

926
00:29:30,230 --> 00:29:28,159
and they're old fashioned in their

927
00:29:30,710 --> 00:29:30,240
religion as well so you almost take this

928
00:29:34,710 --> 00:29:30,720
on

929
00:29:38,389 --> 00:29:34,720
very hard

930
00:29:40,149 --> 00:29:38,399
to understand ancient religion because

931
00:29:41,750 --> 00:29:40,159
there aren't scriptural texts in the

932
00:29:43,830 --> 00:29:41,760
same way what we have are physical

933
00:29:44,389 --> 00:29:43,840
remains we know that somebody built this

934
00:29:45,830 --> 00:29:44,399
temple

935
00:29:47,190 --> 00:29:45,840
we know they dedicated this altar

936
00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:47,200
because often there's an inscription

937
00:29:50,870 --> 00:29:48,880
saying this is what we did

938
00:29:52,870 --> 00:29:50,880
and the fact they're spending lots of

939
00:29:53,909 --> 00:29:52,880
money but you also get

940
00:29:55,909 --> 00:29:53,919
you know the equivalent of the sort of

941
00:29:57,750 --> 00:29:55,919
widow's might the poorly carved the

942
00:29:59,750 --> 00:29:57,760
cheap one that somebody

943
00:30:01,269 --> 00:29:59,760
has thought and even the reverse i mean

944
00:30:03,110 --> 00:30:01,279
one of the striking things just across

945
00:30:04,870 --> 00:30:03,120
the the bristol channel for me is is the

946
00:30:06,789 --> 00:30:04,880
city of bath where you've got

947
00:30:08,470 --> 00:30:06,799
the remains of of hot springs that with

948
00:30:11,590 --> 00:30:08,480
the romans developed into a bath

949
00:30:13,350 --> 00:30:11,600
complex from the first century onwards

950
00:30:15,430 --> 00:30:13,360
and you get these to fix i these little

951
00:30:16,870 --> 00:30:15,440
lead tablets where people have inscribed

952
00:30:19,669 --> 00:30:16,880
a curse on it

953
00:30:21,350 --> 00:30:19,679
wrapped it up and thrown it down into

954
00:30:22,630 --> 00:30:21,360
the hot springs to reach the gods of the

955
00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:22,640
underworld and it's often

956
00:30:25,990 --> 00:30:24,640
it's so it's quite sort of banal it's

957
00:30:29,110 --> 00:30:26,000
you know whoever

958
00:30:31,269 --> 00:30:29,120
be he um man or woman boy or girl slave

959
00:30:33,430 --> 00:30:31,279
or free later christian or pagan who

960
00:30:35,190 --> 00:30:33,440
stole my towel if they don't return it

961
00:30:36,870 --> 00:30:35,200
will all these things happen

962
00:30:38,310 --> 00:30:36,880
so but you know this is is clear

963
00:30:39,190 --> 00:30:38,320
evidence where lots of people are doing

964
00:30:41,350 --> 00:30:39,200
this

965
00:30:42,630 --> 00:30:41,360
and some of them are so formulaic you

966
00:30:44,149 --> 00:30:42,640
might wonder well are there

967
00:30:45,830 --> 00:30:44,159
either either of their books that you

968
00:30:47,190 --> 00:30:45,840
copy this is how you curse someone

969
00:30:48,950 --> 00:30:47,200
or other professionals that you can

970
00:30:50,389 --> 00:30:48,960
basically pay some coins to and they'll

971
00:30:52,789 --> 00:30:50,399
write this for you

972
00:30:53,590 --> 00:30:52,799
but you get you know there is clearly

973
00:30:55,990 --> 00:30:53,600
belief

974
00:30:56,710 --> 00:30:56,000
ritual all of this is absolutely

975
00:30:58,230 --> 00:30:56,720
everywhere

976
00:31:00,070 --> 00:30:58,240
in the ancient world it's so many

977
00:31:01,909 --> 00:31:00,080
aspects of of life

978
00:31:03,269 --> 00:31:01,919
in many many different forms many of

979
00:31:05,750 --> 00:31:03,279
which we glimpse

980
00:31:08,310 --> 00:31:05,760
but we don't really understand and

981
00:31:10,710 --> 00:31:08,320
there's a great danger you don't want to

982
00:31:12,149 --> 00:31:10,720
make it if you're a christian assume say

983
00:31:13,750 --> 00:31:12,159
that it's exactly the same as your

984
00:31:15,509 --> 00:31:13,760
emotional experience

985
00:31:17,110 --> 00:31:15,519
if you're an atheist then you tend to

986
00:31:18,389 --> 00:31:17,120
sort of see all religion as a bit weird

987
00:31:19,029 --> 00:31:18,399
and wacky so you're coming from an

988
00:31:21,190 --> 00:31:19,039
outsider

989
00:31:23,029 --> 00:31:21,200
and you just you you either make it very

990
00:31:24,789 --> 00:31:23,039
sort of mechanistic you know it's

991
00:31:27,350 --> 00:31:24,799
i offer you this because i want this in

992
00:31:28,789 --> 00:31:27,360
return and there's an element of that as

993
00:31:30,310 --> 00:31:28,799
there would be with people lighting

994
00:31:32,389 --> 00:31:30,320
candles to saints now in

995
00:31:33,350 --> 00:31:32,399
catholic countries but it isn't just

996
00:31:35,509 --> 00:31:33,360
that

997
00:31:37,110 --> 00:31:35,519
it's perhaps a little little broad to

998
00:31:38,389 --> 00:31:37,120
expand this but there's an element in

999
00:31:40,310 --> 00:31:38,399
all of this

1000
00:31:41,750 --> 00:31:40,320
there is human hope there are things we

1001
00:31:43,590 --> 00:31:41,760
don't know because this is the future

1002
00:31:46,070 --> 00:31:43,600
and it hasn't happened yet

1003
00:31:47,509 --> 00:31:46,080
and we'd like it to happen this way and

1004
00:31:49,830 --> 00:31:47,519
we're trying to make so

1005
00:31:50,870 --> 00:31:49,840
work out how to to get the but there is

1006
00:31:53,029 --> 00:31:50,880
that

1007
00:31:54,789 --> 00:31:53,039
people who are more likely to do what

1008
00:31:55,590 --> 00:31:54,799
they they're doing or to take risks if

1009
00:31:58,310 --> 00:31:55,600
they have some hope

1010
00:32:00,710 --> 00:31:58,320
they will succeed and that's true in so

1011
00:32:02,389 --> 00:32:00,720
many walks of life and it's often

1012
00:32:04,070 --> 00:32:02,399
a formal religion but you again you'll

1013
00:32:06,070 --> 00:32:04,080
find that some of the the atheists are

1014
00:32:08,070 --> 00:32:06,080
remarkably superstitious

1015
00:32:10,310 --> 00:32:08,080
it's it's difficult because it's hard to

1016
00:32:12,470 --> 00:32:10,320
come to someone say like augustus

1017
00:32:13,830 --> 00:32:12,480
who builds all these temples revives all

1018
00:32:15,430 --> 00:32:13,840
these rituals and yes some of it is

1019
00:32:19,269 --> 00:32:15,440
politics but

1020
00:32:20,950 --> 00:32:19,279
deep down what does he actually believe

1021
00:32:22,870 --> 00:32:20,960
you you would tend to assume because we

1022
00:32:23,830 --> 00:32:22,880
have a few people like cicero who are

1023
00:32:25,430 --> 00:32:23,840
quite cynical

1024
00:32:27,110 --> 00:32:25,440
of many aspects and the philosophical

1025
00:32:28,630 --> 00:32:27,120
schools are becoming this sort of oh you

1026
00:32:29,269 --> 00:32:28,640
know that the gods are just this sort of

1027
00:32:31,029 --> 00:32:29,279
vague

1028
00:32:32,310 --> 00:32:31,039
you know personifications of a divine

1029
00:32:33,750 --> 00:32:32,320
thing out there but

1030
00:32:35,669 --> 00:32:33,760
even they are saying well lots of other

1031
00:32:37,990 --> 00:32:35,679
people actually believe this and

1032
00:32:39,830 --> 00:32:38,000
for this to persist it's i mean i was

1033
00:32:40,789 --> 00:32:39,840
just writing something a couple of days

1034
00:32:42,310 --> 00:32:40,799
ago

1035
00:32:43,909 --> 00:32:42,320
this was was for a novel and i was

1036
00:32:45,350 --> 00:32:43,919
writing about some

1037
00:32:47,430 --> 00:32:45,360
christian characters bacon character

1038
00:32:48,630 --> 00:32:47,440
some some jewish ones in the early 2nd

1039
00:32:50,710 --> 00:32:48,640
century a.d

1040
00:32:51,830 --> 00:32:50,720
and trying to understand what those

1041
00:32:54,950 --> 00:32:51,840
faiths might have been

1042
00:32:56,310 --> 00:32:54,960
in a small town then particularly

1043
00:32:58,630 --> 00:32:56,320
from the jewish perspective where you've

1044
00:33:01,830 --> 00:32:58,640
had the great temple destroyed in 70

1045
00:33:05,269 --> 00:33:01,840
animal sacrifices ended that center of

1046
00:33:06,710 --> 00:33:05,279
so much of the has gone and

1047
00:33:07,669 --> 00:33:06,720
if you look archaeologically it was one

1048
00:33:09,350 --> 00:33:07,679
point i was trying to make in the

1049
00:33:11,029 --> 00:33:09,360
historical note to this book

1050
00:33:13,509 --> 00:33:11,039
if you look at somewhere like galilee

1051
00:33:16,149 --> 00:33:13,519
for the second third century's a.d

1052
00:33:17,350 --> 00:33:16,159
there's almost nothing to show that the

1053
00:33:18,950 --> 00:33:17,360
population

1054
00:33:20,870 --> 00:33:18,960
is doing anything that conforms to

1055
00:33:22,149 --> 00:33:20,880
jewish ritual and then

1056
00:33:24,549 --> 00:33:22,159
suddenly in the fourth and fifth

1057
00:33:25,909 --> 00:33:24,559
centuries being it's there again it

1058
00:33:27,909 --> 00:33:25,919
springs up

1059
00:33:29,269 --> 00:33:27,919
now that can't have happened unless

1060
00:33:30,149 --> 00:33:29,279
people have actually remembered all of

1061
00:33:31,509 --> 00:33:30,159
this

1062
00:33:33,750 --> 00:33:31,519
it's just that they haven't done

1063
00:33:33,990 --> 00:33:33,760
anything that archaeologically in terms

1064
00:33:37,269 --> 00:33:34,000
of

1065
00:33:39,909 --> 00:33:37,279
way they're designing houses that

1066
00:33:41,430 --> 00:33:39,919
there's nothing visible but there's so

1067
00:33:43,350 --> 00:33:41,440
much of life that isn't going to be

1068
00:33:45,029 --> 00:33:43,360
visible in our material culture as the

1069
00:33:47,509 --> 00:33:45,039
archaeologist would call it

1070
00:33:49,350 --> 00:33:47,519
and it's so you find lots of these

1071
00:33:50,630 --> 00:33:49,360
things that that persist because clearly

1072
00:33:51,430 --> 00:33:50,640
people are talking about it and you're

1073
00:33:52,549 --> 00:33:51,440
remembering

1074
00:33:54,389 --> 00:33:52,559
what your grandfather or your

1075
00:33:55,750 --> 00:33:54,399
grandmother told you and you might be

1076
00:33:57,669 --> 00:33:55,760
doing all of these things not

1077
00:33:59,590 --> 00:33:57,679
necessarily doing it very publicly

1078
00:34:00,950 --> 00:33:59,600
or making a big show of it but you are

1079
00:34:04,070 --> 00:34:00,960
doing it and you continue

1080
00:34:06,310 --> 00:34:04,080
so it's a great danger and because

1081
00:34:07,590 --> 00:34:06,320
so much of academic study of of all

1082
00:34:09,430 --> 00:34:07,600
disciplines especially in the arts has

1083
00:34:11,349 --> 00:34:09,440
become very theoretical

1084
00:34:13,430 --> 00:34:11,359
and we have this sense of modeling and

1085
00:34:14,790 --> 00:34:13,440
we label everything in all these

1086
00:34:17,750 --> 00:34:14,800
these terms that are there to make us

1087
00:34:20,069 --> 00:34:17,760
sound intelligent but you lose that

1088
00:34:21,669 --> 00:34:20,079
contact with the fact that in the end

1089
00:34:22,710 --> 00:34:21,679
again you're coming back to people to

1090
00:34:24,629 --> 00:34:22,720
families to

1091
00:34:26,149 --> 00:34:24,639
generations living doing their thing and

1092
00:34:28,310 --> 00:34:26,159
living in a world that

1093
00:34:30,629 --> 00:34:28,320
like ours is very uncertain but if

1094
00:34:33,109 --> 00:34:30,639
anything in most of them are much closer

1095
00:34:34,629 --> 00:34:33,119
to the bread i mean a pandemic on this

1096
00:34:35,510 --> 00:34:34,639
scale that we've just had is is

1097
00:34:37,669 --> 00:34:35,520
appalling

1098
00:34:39,430 --> 00:34:37,679
but compared to the fires the plagues

1099
00:34:40,629 --> 00:34:39,440
that would ravage the roman empire or

1100
00:34:41,909 --> 00:34:40,639
the black death in the middle age you

1101
00:34:43,669 --> 00:34:41,919
know these are

1102
00:34:45,430 --> 00:34:43,679
we are very fortunate to be living in

1103
00:34:47,349 --> 00:34:45,440
21st century especially in a western

1104
00:34:49,909 --> 00:34:47,359
country where we have access to

1105
00:34:51,349 --> 00:34:49,919
these scientific medical discoveries to

1106
00:34:53,510 --> 00:34:51,359
lifestyle standards of

1107
00:34:55,349 --> 00:34:53,520
of health that are so many are so much

1108
00:34:56,230 --> 00:34:55,359
higher than they have been in the bulk

1109
00:34:58,950 --> 00:34:56,240
of human history

1110
00:35:00,790 --> 00:34:58,960
i think the the the complexity and the

1111
00:35:03,430 --> 00:35:00,800
multi-layering of your answer

1112
00:35:05,030 --> 00:35:03,440
is the only thing we can do in the face

1113
00:35:05,990 --> 00:35:05,040
of this and i would tie it back in a

1114
00:35:08,310 --> 00:35:06,000
couple of ways

1115
00:35:09,510 --> 00:35:08,320
to what you were talking about earlier

1116
00:35:12,230 --> 00:35:09,520
we as

1117
00:35:13,990 --> 00:35:12,240
modern people in this culture should not

1118
00:35:15,510 --> 00:35:14,000
assume that these romans are any

1119
00:35:16,950 --> 00:35:15,520
different because we know they're not

1120
00:35:18,710 --> 00:35:16,960
different and then the historian like

1121
00:35:19,349 --> 00:35:18,720
you goes and brings forth all this stuff

1122
00:35:21,589 --> 00:35:19,359
and goes

1123
00:35:22,630 --> 00:35:21,599
i knew it they are they are me i see

1124
00:35:24,630 --> 00:35:22,640
them in the mirror

1125
00:35:26,390 --> 00:35:24,640
and i would say the same is true from a

1126
00:35:28,230 --> 00:35:26,400
spiritual perspective you know

1127
00:35:29,990 --> 00:35:28,240
my thing is we are all living rich

1128
00:35:32,230 --> 00:35:30,000
spiritual lives whether you're an

1129
00:35:33,990 --> 00:35:32,240
atheist or whether you're highly

1130
00:35:35,750 --> 00:35:34,000
religious or spiritual

1131
00:35:37,349 --> 00:35:35,760
you still wake up at two o'clock in the

1132
00:35:39,510 --> 00:35:37,359
morning staring at the ceiling

1133
00:35:41,270 --> 00:35:39,520
wondering what will be the fate of your

1134
00:35:41,910 --> 00:35:41,280
son what will be the fate of the ones

1135
00:35:46,069 --> 00:35:41,920
you love

1136
00:35:48,550 --> 00:35:46,079
who've passed on

1137
00:35:50,069 --> 00:35:48,560
and when you hear them whispering and in

1138
00:35:51,430 --> 00:35:50,079
your dreams you wonder if there's

1139
00:35:53,910 --> 00:35:51,440
reality to that

1140
00:35:55,589 --> 00:35:53,920
and then you know my thing on this show

1141
00:35:57,270 --> 00:35:55,599
for a couple hundred shows saying is

1142
00:35:59,430 --> 00:35:57,280
there any reality to that

1143
00:36:00,710 --> 00:35:59,440
well terminal lucidity and near-death

1144
00:36:02,870 --> 00:36:00,720
experience and

1145
00:36:04,390 --> 00:36:02,880
reincarnation research at the university

1146
00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:04,400
of virginia is all

1147
00:36:08,550 --> 00:36:06,640
conclusively pointing in the same way

1148
00:36:09,990 --> 00:36:08,560
there is this extended consciousness

1149
00:36:12,550 --> 00:36:10,000
realm that we all

1150
00:36:14,630 --> 00:36:12,560
do have a sense that's out there so if

1151
00:36:16,230 --> 00:36:14,640
we are somehow in some way we don't

1152
00:36:17,430 --> 00:36:16,240
understand because we don't understand

1153
00:36:19,589 --> 00:36:17,440
it i don't understand it

1154
00:36:20,870 --> 00:36:19,599
but if we are engaged in that extended

1155
00:36:22,310 --> 00:36:20,880
consciousness realm

1156
00:36:25,670 --> 00:36:22,320
then i think it's only reasonable to

1157
00:36:27,270 --> 00:36:25,680
assume that so was julius caesar so was

1158
00:36:30,069 --> 00:36:27,280
miss spacey and so were

1159
00:36:31,270 --> 00:36:30,079
and and that to write that out of the

1160
00:36:34,870 --> 00:36:31,280
history

1161
00:36:36,870 --> 00:36:34,880
seems like a mistake in the same way

1162
00:36:39,589 --> 00:36:36,880
that that you're saying to not look at

1163
00:36:40,470 --> 00:36:39,599
it with also kind of a little bit of a

1164
00:36:43,109 --> 00:36:40,480
suspicious

1165
00:36:43,750 --> 00:36:43,119
eye and say you know but i also see

1166
00:36:45,750 --> 00:36:43,760
other

1167
00:36:47,349 --> 00:36:45,760
motivations that might be involved in

1168
00:36:50,150 --> 00:36:47,359
the same way that i see him

1169
00:36:51,190 --> 00:36:50,160
in the modern culture so are we in sync

1170
00:36:52,470 --> 00:36:51,200
on that

1171
00:36:55,109 --> 00:36:52,480
i think we're certainly similar i mean

1172
00:36:56,870 --> 00:36:55,119
one one nice example i'd give is

1173
00:36:58,550 --> 00:36:56,880
you've had a lot of stuff over the years

1174
00:36:59,910 --> 00:36:58,560
looking at sort of demographics in the

1175
00:37:01,829 --> 00:36:59,920
roman empire and saying well life

1176
00:37:04,230 --> 00:37:01,839
expectancy on average is low because

1177
00:37:05,910 --> 00:37:04,240
an awful infant mortality is appallingly

1178
00:37:07,589 --> 00:37:05,920
high and many women die during

1179
00:37:10,069 --> 00:37:07,599
childbirth many children don't

1180
00:37:11,829 --> 00:37:10,079
last very long and therefore there's

1181
00:37:14,390 --> 00:37:11,839
then been this sort of very

1182
00:37:15,670 --> 00:37:14,400
rational rather cold assumption that

1183
00:37:17,030 --> 00:37:15,680
that means

1184
00:37:20,150 --> 00:37:17,040
the romans or anybody else the ancient

1185
00:37:21,990 --> 00:37:20,160
one didn't really care when a child died

1186
00:37:23,270 --> 00:37:22,000
because well you know they do lots of

1187
00:37:24,230 --> 00:37:23,280
them will have a few more and it'll be

1188
00:37:25,349 --> 00:37:24,240
fine in the long run

1189
00:37:27,510 --> 00:37:25,359
and that's partly because

1190
00:37:29,430 --> 00:37:27,520
archaeologically we don't find so many

1191
00:37:31,349 --> 00:37:29,440
graves of children

1192
00:37:33,430 --> 00:37:31,359
but that's because children's bones are

1193
00:37:35,670 --> 00:37:33,440
desperately fragile especially in

1194
00:37:37,190 --> 00:37:35,680
infants and in many cultures we don't

1195
00:37:38,630 --> 00:37:37,200
find graves at all so we don't know how

1196
00:37:40,310 --> 00:37:38,640
they get disposing of the dead

1197
00:37:42,069 --> 00:37:40,320
it's so you know they're doing things

1198
00:37:44,069 --> 00:37:42,079
that aren't visible archaeologically but

1199
00:37:46,710 --> 00:37:44,079
you've only got to go there's a museum

1200
00:37:48,710 --> 00:37:46,720
at um corbridge on hadrian's wall

1201
00:37:50,630 --> 00:37:48,720
and they have two tombstones in there

1202
00:37:53,750 --> 00:37:50,640
and one of them is to this little girl

1203
00:37:55,430 --> 00:37:53,760
and it's carved on stone but it's like

1204
00:37:57,030 --> 00:37:55,440
a child's picture you know the way

1205
00:37:58,550 --> 00:37:57,040
children will draw and they'll draw the

1206
00:38:00,150 --> 00:37:58,560
fingers and the thumb

1207
00:38:01,430 --> 00:38:00,160
because they know you've got four and

1208
00:38:01,829 --> 00:38:01,440
four fingers and a thumb so they draw

1209
00:38:03,990 --> 00:38:01,839
them

1210
00:38:05,109 --> 00:38:04,000
holding a ball and it's this little girl

1211
00:38:08,150 --> 00:38:05,119
who's three

1212
00:38:09,430 --> 00:38:08,160
years a couple of months a few days and

1213
00:38:11,430 --> 00:38:09,440
the family another family obviously had

1214
00:38:13,270 --> 00:38:11,440
enough money to put this up but

1215
00:38:14,550 --> 00:38:13,280
you can't look at that and tell me these

1216
00:38:16,230 --> 00:38:14,560
people didn't care

1217
00:38:18,550 --> 00:38:16,240
that they're not feeling exactly the

1218
00:38:21,109 --> 00:38:18,560
same emotions that any parent feels when

1219
00:38:24,150 --> 00:38:21,119
they hold one of those tiny things and

1220
00:38:25,510 --> 00:38:24,160
just wonder and then to lose it and yes

1221
00:38:27,430 --> 00:38:25,520
they're in a world where lots of

1222
00:38:29,349 --> 00:38:27,440
terrible things happen you know we're

1223
00:38:30,230 --> 00:38:29,359
we're lucky we are very insulated though

1224
00:38:32,790 --> 00:38:30,240
again

1225
00:38:34,390 --> 00:38:32,800
no some people have have to face

1226
00:38:37,670 --> 00:38:34,400
terrible disease and other

1227
00:38:39,910 --> 00:38:37,680
you know disasters in you know in

1228
00:38:40,950 --> 00:38:39,920
in modern day and in in our countries

1229
00:38:43,190 --> 00:38:40,960
but

1230
00:38:44,069 --> 00:38:43,200
it's just so human you know and it's

1231
00:38:46,069 --> 00:38:44,079
that same

1232
00:38:47,910 --> 00:38:46,079
sense and you can see the hope as well

1233
00:38:49,430 --> 00:38:47,920
that you know this

1234
00:38:50,950 --> 00:38:49,440
their little girl's gone somewhere nice

1235
00:38:53,109 --> 00:38:50,960
you know that anyone is going to think

1236
00:38:56,310 --> 00:38:53,119
in those circumstances the sense of

1237
00:38:58,150 --> 00:38:56,320
this wasn't just flesh and blood that

1238
00:39:00,230 --> 00:38:58,160
didn't function properly and then died

1239
00:39:02,710 --> 00:39:00,240
and oh well let's dispose of it so

1240
00:39:04,150 --> 00:39:02,720
it's it's there and it's it's it's there

1241
00:39:06,310 --> 00:39:04,160
in any period of history but

1242
00:39:07,589 --> 00:39:06,320
it's it's particularly so in the ancient

1243
00:39:09,430 --> 00:39:07,599
world it's just that

1244
00:39:11,750 --> 00:39:09,440
as with so many things you you get

1245
00:39:14,790 --> 00:39:11,760
glimpses and you can't

1246
00:39:17,270 --> 00:39:14,800
but deep down you know anyone today

1247
00:39:19,270 --> 00:39:17,280
um you can judge their actions their

1248
00:39:21,510 --> 00:39:19,280
beliefs on what they do

1249
00:39:22,790 --> 00:39:21,520
what you know publicly but you don't

1250
00:39:24,950 --> 00:39:22,800
know what they've thought

1251
00:39:26,310 --> 00:39:24,960
and you don't so that there's that

1252
00:39:27,829 --> 00:39:26,320
element of mystery but

1253
00:39:29,270 --> 00:39:27,839
it's it's rather like napoleon in that

1254
00:39:31,030 --> 00:39:29,280
sense of not being a religious man but

1255
00:39:32,310 --> 00:39:31,040
having this sense of his own destiny his

1256
00:39:34,390 --> 00:39:32,320
star

1257
00:39:36,069 --> 00:39:34,400
that meant that i'm special i can do

1258
00:39:37,589 --> 00:39:36,079
these things and if i do it i'll succeed

1259
00:39:40,630 --> 00:39:37,599
so that he sometimes takes

1260
00:39:42,630 --> 00:39:40,640
absurd gambles and you know probably

1261
00:39:44,550 --> 00:39:42,640
could have stayed emperor in 1813 if

1262
00:39:46,550 --> 00:39:44,560
he'd been willing to negotiate

1263
00:39:48,069 --> 00:39:46,560
but doesn't because i can win and

1264
00:39:49,510 --> 00:39:48,079
eventually you know the dice just don't

1265
00:39:53,270 --> 00:39:49,520
go his way and he does

1266
00:39:53,990 --> 00:39:53,280
but if you remove that personality again

1267
00:39:55,589 --> 00:39:54,000
and

1268
00:39:57,430 --> 00:39:55,599
that personality that's rooted in a

1269
00:39:59,430 --> 00:39:57,440
sense of

1270
00:40:00,630 --> 00:39:59,440
in his case destiny but of something

1271
00:40:04,150 --> 00:40:00,640
that is more than

1272
00:40:05,910 --> 00:40:04,160
simple calculation then

1273
00:40:07,589 --> 00:40:05,920
none of it makes sense and you can't

1274
00:40:08,710 --> 00:40:07,599
really explain these things in an

1275
00:40:10,309 --> 00:40:08,720
accurate way so

1276
00:40:12,230 --> 00:40:10,319
i think it needs to be there as i say

1277
00:40:13,829 --> 00:40:12,240
it's it's the balance of trying to look

1278
00:40:15,430 --> 00:40:13,839
at all sides but this is

1279
00:40:17,670 --> 00:40:15,440
is an element because we're talking

1280
00:40:19,270 --> 00:40:17,680
about people you've touched on this a

1281
00:40:21,190 --> 00:40:19,280
couple times but let's talk about it

1282
00:40:24,630 --> 00:40:21,200
directly and that is

1283
00:40:27,270 --> 00:40:24,640
sources and i i think you

1284
00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:27,280
bring for us a new kind of understanding

1285
00:40:32,390 --> 00:40:29,760
of the challenge that historians face

1286
00:40:33,829 --> 00:40:32,400
and i like how you do it directly i i

1287
00:40:35,109 --> 00:40:33,839
remember i was reading one of your books

1288
00:40:39,349 --> 00:40:35,119
and you had this

1289
00:40:41,430 --> 00:40:39,359
small just little bit on a geographer

1290
00:40:42,550 --> 00:40:41,440
from crete and i don't even know what

1291
00:40:44,550 --> 00:40:42,560
that means

1292
00:40:46,150 --> 00:40:44,560
in that time period but you're adding

1293
00:40:46,630 --> 00:40:46,160
just this little tidbit because you're

1294
00:40:49,670 --> 00:40:46,640
saying

1295
00:40:50,470 --> 00:40:49,680
gosh darn it i can't i can't fill in all

1296
00:40:52,309 --> 00:40:50,480
these gaps

1297
00:40:54,390 --> 00:40:52,319
and i can't even trust this all the

1298
00:40:54,950 --> 00:40:54,400
sources that i have completely i have to

1299
00:40:57,910 --> 00:40:54,960
be

1300
00:40:59,589 --> 00:40:57,920
always looking for these other angles

1301
00:41:01,829 --> 00:40:59,599
these other sources

1302
00:41:02,710 --> 00:41:01,839
that seems to be such an awesome part of

1303
00:41:05,270 --> 00:41:02,720
your work

1304
00:41:07,030 --> 00:41:05,280
talk to us about the gaps and the

1305
00:41:08,550 --> 00:41:07,040
filling in the gaps and maybe not

1306
00:41:10,550 --> 00:41:08,560
filling in the gaps

1307
00:41:12,309 --> 00:41:10,560
well there's so much really because you

1308
00:41:14,309 --> 00:41:12,319
know that the greeks and the romans

1309
00:41:18,150 --> 00:41:14,319
wrote down a huge amount

1310
00:41:19,109 --> 00:41:18,160
but we have a tiny tiny fraction of one

1311
00:41:20,870 --> 00:41:19,119
percent

1312
00:41:22,230 --> 00:41:20,880
that's preserved in any shape or form

1313
00:41:24,230 --> 00:41:22,240
and most of it is is

1314
00:41:25,990 --> 00:41:24,240
just missing and that's that's of the

1315
00:41:26,710 --> 00:41:26,000
formerly published books as it were but

1316
00:41:28,470 --> 00:41:26,720
again

1317
00:41:30,069 --> 00:41:28,480
formally published means that people

1318
00:41:31,030 --> 00:41:30,079
copied them out because this is the four

1319
00:41:33,510 --> 00:41:31,040
presses so

1320
00:41:35,430 --> 00:41:33,520
you know books were expensive things

1321
00:41:37,030 --> 00:41:35,440
they're also big bulky things to carry

1322
00:41:38,790 --> 00:41:37,040
around

1323
00:41:40,870 --> 00:41:38,800
so we've lost a lot of that but then

1324
00:41:42,230 --> 00:41:40,880
you're dealing with a population of you

1325
00:41:43,670 --> 00:41:42,240
know even the conservative estimates of

1326
00:41:47,510 --> 00:41:43,680
their own empire talking 60

1327
00:41:49,750 --> 00:41:47,520
70 million um over centuries

1328
00:41:50,950 --> 00:41:49,760
we don't know what the level of literacy

1329
00:41:53,190 --> 00:41:50,960
was but there are clearly a lot of

1330
00:41:54,950 --> 00:41:53,200
people who never write anything down

1331
00:41:56,230 --> 00:41:54,960
it's it's quite interesting that it

1332
00:41:57,589 --> 00:41:56,240
tells you something about the society

1333
00:41:59,670 --> 00:41:57,599
the commonest form

1334
00:42:00,829 --> 00:41:59,680
of any writing from the ancient world

1335
00:42:02,390 --> 00:42:00,839
from the roman world is a letter of

1336
00:42:04,150 --> 00:42:02,400
recommendation saying

1337
00:42:06,630 --> 00:42:04,160
do this for my friend give him a job

1338
00:42:09,349 --> 00:42:06,640
give him help or imagine you see me when

1339
00:42:10,630 --> 00:42:09,359
he or she stands before you so it tells

1340
00:42:11,510 --> 00:42:10,640
you about how they're interacting as

1341
00:42:13,349 --> 00:42:11,520
people but

1342
00:42:16,470 --> 00:42:13,359
there is so much that's missing and

1343
00:42:18,069 --> 00:42:16,480
there is so much where you can

1344
00:42:20,309 --> 00:42:18,079
you know you can see with things like

1345
00:42:21,829 --> 00:42:20,319
the the writing tablets from vindalanda

1346
00:42:25,430 --> 00:42:21,839
the papyri from

1347
00:42:26,870 --> 00:42:25,440
egypt from um the middle east um austria

1348
00:42:29,030 --> 00:42:26,880
these

1349
00:42:31,430 --> 00:42:29,040
it looks very impractical but in a lot

1350
00:42:34,150 --> 00:42:31,440
of particularly desert areas they use

1351
00:42:35,910 --> 00:42:34,160
broken pieces of pottery as paper

1352
00:42:38,069 --> 00:42:35,920
because if it's from a big amphor it's

1353
00:42:38,950 --> 00:42:38,079
reasonably flat and it's cheap and what

1354
00:42:39,990 --> 00:42:38,960
else you're going to do with it it's

1355
00:42:40,710 --> 00:42:40,000
only going to throw it out so you can

1356
00:42:42,309 --> 00:42:40,720
write on it

1357
00:42:43,910 --> 00:42:42,319
so particularly for your sort of not so

1358
00:42:45,349 --> 00:42:43,920
good copies but you'll even the army

1359
00:42:48,069 --> 00:42:45,359
will send messages

1360
00:42:49,670 --> 00:42:48,079
on this stuff um and you have these you

1361
00:42:52,069 --> 00:42:49,680
know these incredible fragments there's

1362
00:42:53,670 --> 00:42:52,079
the one from a little outpost on one of

1363
00:42:56,710 --> 00:42:53,680
the roads going down to the red sea

1364
00:42:58,710 --> 00:42:56,720
ports where it talks about an attack by

1365
00:43:00,950 --> 00:42:58,720
60 barbarians on this outpost

1366
00:43:02,470 --> 00:43:00,960
on the caravan that's been sheltering by

1367
00:43:04,710 --> 00:43:02,480
an output this is this

1368
00:43:06,150 --> 00:43:04,720
account is written by an ordinary

1369
00:43:06,790 --> 00:43:06,160
soldier as far as we can tell so he's

1370
00:43:08,470 --> 00:43:06,800
not you know

1371
00:43:10,150 --> 00:43:08,480
even a century in our officer but it

1372
00:43:11,430 --> 00:43:10,160
it's down to that level and it

1373
00:43:13,270 --> 00:43:11,440
sounds straight out of a john ford

1374
00:43:14,630 --> 00:43:13,280
western i mean it's you know they

1375
00:43:16,630 --> 00:43:14,640
there's a woman and two children are

1376
00:43:17,030 --> 00:43:16,640
abducted they find a dead child they're

1377
00:43:19,030 --> 00:43:17,040
tracy

1378
00:43:20,069 --> 00:43:19,040
you could sort of see john wayne they're

1379
00:43:23,270 --> 00:43:20,079
looking you know really

1380
00:43:25,670 --> 00:43:23,280
um rugged and and upset but we'll get

1381
00:43:27,349 --> 00:43:25,680
him back sort of thing and it's

1382
00:43:29,510 --> 00:43:27,359
but it's very and it's pure chance it

1383
00:43:30,950 --> 00:43:29,520
survives and there's a big chunk broken

1384
00:43:32,309 --> 00:43:30,960
out in in the middle of it that so we

1385
00:43:33,829 --> 00:43:32,319
don't get the full story

1386
00:43:35,270 --> 00:43:33,839
and then it's forwarded on to sort of

1387
00:43:36,710 --> 00:43:35,280
all the outposts along this road look

1388
00:43:37,589 --> 00:43:36,720
there's a warning there's trouble out

1389
00:43:39,270 --> 00:43:37,599
there do this

1390
00:43:40,790 --> 00:43:39,280
so you get these glimpses of the

1391
00:43:43,030 --> 00:43:40,800
everyday you get

1392
00:43:44,150 --> 00:43:43,040
the the vindlander writing tablet that

1393
00:43:47,109 --> 00:43:44,160
that is

1394
00:43:49,190 --> 00:43:47,119
um an invitation to a birthday party by

1395
00:43:51,109 --> 00:43:49,200
the wife of one commander

1396
00:43:52,550 --> 00:43:51,119
one garrison to the wife of another

1397
00:43:55,190 --> 00:43:52,560
sophistia lepadina

1398
00:43:57,030 --> 00:43:55,200
and it's it's interesting because it's

1399
00:43:58,150 --> 00:43:57,040
written obviously by a scribe but the

1400
00:43:59,750 --> 00:43:58,160
last line

1401
00:44:01,030 --> 00:43:59,760
is written in different handwriting

1402
00:44:02,230 --> 00:44:01,040
which is probably the woman's themselves

1403
00:44:04,390 --> 00:44:02,240
so it makes it you know

1404
00:44:05,510 --> 00:44:04,400
that's probably the earliest handwriting

1405
00:44:07,349 --> 00:44:05,520
certainly in britain

1406
00:44:09,670 --> 00:44:07,359
perhaps in europe by a woman that would

1407
00:44:11,750 --> 00:44:09,680
possess it's about 8 100.

1408
00:44:12,710 --> 00:44:11,760
but it's so normal you know inviting a

1409
00:44:15,190 --> 00:44:12,720
friend over

1410
00:44:16,870 --> 00:44:15,200
because it's your birthday but what's

1411
00:44:18,630 --> 00:44:16,880
interesting is that from that

1412
00:44:20,150 --> 00:44:18,640
we'd always thought of these places as

1413
00:44:22,630 --> 00:44:20,160
army bases you know this is

1414
00:44:23,990 --> 00:44:22,640
we call them forts fortress is where a

1415
00:44:25,750 --> 00:44:24,000
legion lives a fort is where an

1416
00:44:26,309 --> 00:44:25,760
auxiliary unit about a tenth of the size

1417
00:44:28,230 --> 00:44:26,319
lives

1418
00:44:30,069 --> 00:44:28,240
but fort comes up the idea is you know

1419
00:44:32,470 --> 00:44:30,079
it's very military it's

1420
00:44:35,270 --> 00:44:32,480
it's about walls and towers and defenses

1421
00:44:36,790 --> 00:44:35,280
and a garrison of men ready to fight

1422
00:44:38,309 --> 00:44:36,800
but the writing tablets make it clear

1423
00:44:40,470 --> 00:44:38,319
that the the commanding officers brought

1424
00:44:42,309 --> 00:44:40,480
his wife his children his slaves his

1425
00:44:44,230 --> 00:44:42,319
hunting dogs his horses

1426
00:44:46,790 --> 00:44:44,240
we're finding within the barrett blocks

1427
00:44:47,910 --> 00:44:46,800
there children's and women's shoes and

1428
00:44:49,510 --> 00:44:47,920
things in the

1429
00:44:51,109 --> 00:44:49,520
again it's one of those surprises you

1430
00:44:53,109 --> 00:44:51,119
expect the roman army to be desperately

1431
00:44:55,430 --> 00:44:53,119
clean about everything but the floor

1432
00:44:57,190 --> 00:44:55,440
is actually rush matting and when it

1433
00:44:58,710 --> 00:44:57,200
gets dirty instead of cleaning it out

1434
00:45:00,150 --> 00:44:58,720
and putting new stuff in they just pile

1435
00:45:01,829 --> 00:45:00,160
more on top

1436
00:45:03,270 --> 00:45:01,839
and you know so these and you can tell

1437
00:45:04,870 --> 00:45:03,280
from all the the remains of the

1438
00:45:05,670 --> 00:45:04,880
parasites the insects you know this is

1439
00:45:07,990 --> 00:45:05,680
quite a sort of

1440
00:45:08,710 --> 00:45:08,000
unhealthy environment but this is where

1441
00:45:10,550 --> 00:45:08,720
but

1442
00:45:12,870 --> 00:45:10,560
and there are shoes and things that are

1443
00:45:14,390 --> 00:45:12,880
found in this mat you know big things

1444
00:45:15,910 --> 00:45:14,400
that were clearly covered over and in

1445
00:45:17,349 --> 00:45:15,920
the dim light nobody could see because

1446
00:45:20,230 --> 00:45:17,359
it's still there now

1447
00:45:21,990 --> 00:45:20,240
um you know best part of 18 centuries

1448
00:45:23,829 --> 00:45:22,000
later

1449
00:45:25,270 --> 00:45:23,839
but it's telling us that this isn't a

1450
00:45:27,030 --> 00:45:25,280
fort as we see it it's

1451
00:45:28,309 --> 00:45:27,040
it's an army based like one today it's a

1452
00:45:30,950 --> 00:45:28,319
garrison town

1453
00:45:31,990 --> 00:45:30,960
it's got the families it's got the noisy

1454
00:45:34,550 --> 00:45:32,000
children running around

1455
00:45:35,190 --> 00:45:34,560
and it's got all the shops outside it's

1456
00:45:37,750 --> 00:45:35,200
got the

1457
00:45:38,710 --> 00:45:37,760
you know so it's it's a very different

1458
00:45:41,030 --> 00:45:38,720
thing

1459
00:45:42,470 --> 00:45:41,040
and the hints of all of this were there

1460
00:45:43,990 --> 00:45:42,480
in the sources

1461
00:45:45,430 --> 00:45:44,000
but until things like the vindlander

1462
00:45:47,430 --> 00:45:45,440
tablets and excavations came along

1463
00:45:49,510 --> 00:45:47,440
nobody put the pieces together

1464
00:45:50,870 --> 00:45:49,520
once you do it's obvious that this is

1465
00:45:52,470 --> 00:45:50,880
what we should have expected

1466
00:45:54,870 --> 00:45:52,480
and that it's obvious that these

1467
00:45:56,230 --> 00:45:54,880
relatively aristocratic women are

1468
00:45:58,390 --> 00:45:56,240
trying to have the same sort of social

1469
00:46:00,150 --> 00:45:58,400
life they'd have back in southern gall

1470
00:46:00,550 --> 00:46:00,160
or spain or italy wherever they came

1471
00:46:02,150 --> 00:46:00,560
from

1472
00:46:03,510 --> 00:46:02,160
and they're socially networking with

1473
00:46:05,109 --> 00:46:03,520
their peers and doing and they're

1474
00:46:07,109 --> 00:46:05,119
trading favors you know we have another

1475
00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:07,119
letter from a woman who's asking a favor

1476
00:46:11,349 --> 00:46:08,400
of the commander

1477
00:46:13,109 --> 00:46:11,359
because she's a friend of his wife so

1478
00:46:16,550 --> 00:46:13,119
they're doing all these very

1479
00:46:17,270 --> 00:46:16,560
greco-roman things but on the very very

1480
00:46:19,190 --> 00:46:17,280
edge

1481
00:46:20,790 --> 00:46:19,200
of the roman empire as it was then right

1482
00:46:23,910 --> 00:46:20,800
out in the wilds

1483
00:46:25,670 --> 00:46:23,920
so we have and that's the the

1484
00:46:27,030 --> 00:46:25,680
it's one of the things to me that's so

1485
00:46:28,230 --> 00:46:27,040
fascinating about the ancient world is

1486
00:46:30,230 --> 00:46:28,240
there isn't just

1487
00:46:31,589 --> 00:46:30,240
one type of source you know you have the

1488
00:46:33,589 --> 00:46:31,599
literature you have the writings of the

1489
00:46:34,950 --> 00:46:33,599
ciceros the caesars the plinies the

1490
00:46:36,630 --> 00:46:34,960
poets

1491
00:46:38,230 --> 00:46:36,640
you also have these other texts that

1492
00:46:39,750 --> 00:46:38,240
maybe get you know turn up

1493
00:46:41,589 --> 00:46:39,760
we'd never have heard of silvicio

1494
00:46:42,470 --> 00:46:41,599
lepadina her husband serialis were it

1495
00:46:44,309 --> 00:46:42,480
not for these

1496
00:46:45,910 --> 00:46:44,319
writing times we know nothing about them

1497
00:46:48,390 --> 00:46:45,920
other than what's revealed

1498
00:46:50,069 --> 00:46:48,400
from their stay in in vindalanda but you

1499
00:46:51,670 --> 00:46:50,079
know in surpicile epidino

1500
00:46:53,589 --> 00:46:51,680
case we've also got one of her shoes

1501
00:46:55,670 --> 00:46:53,599
turned out and that's that's

1502
00:46:57,190 --> 00:46:55,680
the thong between the toes breaks so

1503
00:46:59,270 --> 00:46:57,200
rather than repair it she's wealthy

1504
00:46:59,910 --> 00:46:59,280
enough that gets thrown away by some new

1505
00:47:02,309 --> 00:46:59,920
ones

1506
00:47:03,829 --> 00:47:02,319
um but that tells you again about this

1507
00:47:05,670 --> 00:47:03,839
one of the children seems to have had

1508
00:47:07,349 --> 00:47:05,680
some sort of

1509
00:47:09,430 --> 00:47:07,359
perhaps spine defect or some health

1510
00:47:11,670 --> 00:47:09,440
problem because his shoes wear out

1511
00:47:13,030 --> 00:47:11,680
in a strange way on the front side of

1512
00:47:14,390 --> 00:47:13,040
either soul so either

1513
00:47:16,309 --> 00:47:14,400
he's just doing something in the way

1514
00:47:18,230 --> 00:47:16,319
that kids will but you know

1515
00:47:19,349 --> 00:47:18,240
many times you say don't do that yeah

1516
00:47:20,230 --> 00:47:19,359
he's going to stand that way he's going

1517
00:47:21,829 --> 00:47:20,240
to walk that way

1518
00:47:24,069 --> 00:47:21,839
he's riding at his skateboard and that's

1519
00:47:26,950 --> 00:47:24,079
how there's something you know

1520
00:47:27,589 --> 00:47:26,960
there's a story there um in the same way

1521
00:47:31,349 --> 00:47:27,599
that

1522
00:47:32,950 --> 00:47:31,359
been laid out to dry

1523
00:47:34,390 --> 00:47:32,960
and then a dog or a cat has come and

1524
00:47:35,910 --> 00:47:34,400
walked across them and left the paw

1525
00:47:37,430 --> 00:47:35,920
prints and that's still there

1526
00:47:38,630 --> 00:47:37,440
because when it's baked in that's you

1527
00:47:39,349 --> 00:47:38,640
had to stay there and it's been on the

1528
00:47:41,190 --> 00:47:39,359
roof

1529
00:47:42,630 --> 00:47:41,200
all these little human touch we get that

1530
00:47:44,309 --> 00:47:42,640
the archaeology gives us

1531
00:47:45,829 --> 00:47:44,319
very much a sense of the mundane the

1532
00:47:48,470 --> 00:47:45,839
day-to-day

1533
00:47:49,430 --> 00:47:48,480
but it's limited because what you mostly

1534
00:47:51,670 --> 00:47:49,440
find are the rubbish

1535
00:47:53,349 --> 00:47:51,680
the things people threw away you know

1536
00:47:54,710 --> 00:47:53,359
the vindelanda writing tablets so

1537
00:47:56,710 --> 00:47:54,720
precious to us

1538
00:47:58,309 --> 00:47:56,720
are all the letters all the paperwork

1539
00:47:58,870 --> 00:47:58,319
that when somebody was about to move on

1540
00:48:00,470 --> 00:47:58,880
they thought

1541
00:48:01,910 --> 00:48:00,480
i'm not carrying that all the way you

1542
00:48:02,950 --> 00:48:01,920
know hundreds of miles thousand miles

1543
00:48:05,270 --> 00:48:02,960
from another province

1544
00:48:06,150 --> 00:48:05,280
just shove it on the bonfire and because

1545
00:48:07,990 --> 00:48:06,160
they're wood

1546
00:48:09,829 --> 00:48:08,000
as the fire heated up it's such thin

1547
00:48:11,910 --> 00:48:09,839
wood it's been lifted off

1548
00:48:13,750 --> 00:48:11,920
and landed somewhere else and then got

1549
00:48:15,430 --> 00:48:13,760
buried and preserved or

1550
00:48:17,349 --> 00:48:15,440
there's one they found a couple of years

1551
00:48:18,150 --> 00:48:17,359
ago or a set of tablets that were in a

1552
00:48:19,670 --> 00:48:18,160
line

1553
00:48:21,349 --> 00:48:19,680
and the thinking is that maybe somebody

1554
00:48:23,510 --> 00:48:21,359
was carrying a basket or a bucket

1555
00:48:24,870 --> 00:48:23,520
to the fire with a hole in it and they

1556
00:48:26,309 --> 00:48:24,880
just dropped out

1557
00:48:28,150 --> 00:48:26,319
and then they're demolishing the fort

1558
00:48:29,109 --> 00:48:28,160
around them it's buried within days so

1559
00:48:32,470 --> 00:48:29,119
it's preserved

1560
00:48:33,990 --> 00:48:32,480
it's so you have the archaeology you

1561
00:48:36,230 --> 00:48:34,000
have these inscriptions people

1562
00:48:38,710 --> 00:48:36,240
chose to set up all of this it's all

1563
00:48:40,470 --> 00:48:38,720
telling you about the same world

1564
00:48:41,750 --> 00:48:40,480
and academics being academics have a

1565
00:48:43,030 --> 00:48:41,760
dreadful tendency

1566
00:48:44,069 --> 00:48:43,040
to separate off into their little

1567
00:48:45,670 --> 00:48:44,079
disciplines and you know i'm an

1568
00:48:46,790 --> 00:48:45,680
epigrapher i only look at inscriptions

1569
00:48:48,390 --> 00:48:46,800
i'm an archaeologist

1570
00:48:50,150 --> 00:48:48,400
literary texts don't matter i'm a

1571
00:48:51,910 --> 00:48:50,160
historian the text of what's matter the

1572
00:48:53,670 --> 00:48:51,920
archaeology doesn't count

1573
00:48:55,510 --> 00:48:53,680
let's let's pick up on that because

1574
00:48:56,309 --> 00:48:55,520
because that is one that is one of my

1575
00:48:59,589 --> 00:48:56,319
frustrations

1576
00:49:02,230 --> 00:48:59,599
again coming in to this from the outside

1577
00:49:03,829 --> 00:49:02,240
being kind of a science and a tech guy

1578
00:49:05,829 --> 00:49:03,839
and going into your world

1579
00:49:07,430 --> 00:49:05,839
and like i got very interested in

1580
00:49:09,750 --> 00:49:07,440
josephus and i still

1581
00:49:11,990 --> 00:49:09,760
am very interested in josephus but i'm

1582
00:49:14,309 --> 00:49:12,000
also interested in the parapolitical

1583
00:49:16,470 --> 00:49:14,319
and i read the jewish war and i read

1584
00:49:19,270 --> 00:49:16,480
okay this is propaganda literature

1585
00:49:19,750 --> 00:49:19,280
we shouldn't trust anything that he says

1586
00:49:22,790 --> 00:49:19,760
really

1587
00:49:23,829 --> 00:49:22,800
we he has one agenda and then i look at

1588
00:49:24,950 --> 00:49:23,839
the historians

1589
00:49:26,549 --> 00:49:24,960
and they're using this source and

1590
00:49:26,950 --> 00:49:26,559
they're there it's the old analogy of

1591
00:49:30,069 --> 00:49:26,960
you know

1592
00:49:31,670 --> 00:49:30,079
i lost my keys in the parking lot but

1593
00:49:33,030 --> 00:49:31,680
i'm going to look over here under the

1594
00:49:34,870 --> 00:49:33,040
the street light because the light is

1595
00:49:35,670 --> 00:49:34,880
better it's like you're not going to

1596
00:49:37,670 --> 00:49:35,680
find it

1597
00:49:39,910 --> 00:49:37,680
there this is one of my favorite and

1598
00:49:41,030 --> 00:49:39,920
this is a highly regarded highly

1599
00:49:44,870 --> 00:49:41,040
respected

1600
00:49:48,710 --> 00:49:44,880
josephus expert and historian who writes

1601
00:49:52,549 --> 00:49:48,720
claims to quote unquote want to

1602
00:49:55,829 --> 00:49:52,559
make a broadly post-colonial perspective

1603
00:49:59,270 --> 00:49:55,839
on hybrid identities of insiderness

1604
00:50:01,430 --> 00:49:59,280
outsiderness when revisiting josephus

1605
00:50:02,390 --> 00:50:01,440
and i'm like okay but don't you have to

1606
00:50:04,710 --> 00:50:02,400
start with

1607
00:50:06,549 --> 00:50:04,720
what was his motivation what was his

1608
00:50:08,470 --> 00:50:06,559
agenda what is he telling us and how

1609
00:50:10,470 --> 00:50:08,480
does that conform with

1610
00:50:11,670 --> 00:50:10,480
what we know about how the history plays

1611
00:50:14,549 --> 00:50:11,680
out

1612
00:50:15,990 --> 00:50:14,559
exactly i mean it's when i was doing my

1613
00:50:17,670 --> 00:50:16,000
doctorate they were trans

1614
00:50:19,349 --> 00:50:17,680
only a section but some of the the

1615
00:50:20,309 --> 00:50:19,359
faculty was trying to put all this

1616
00:50:22,790 --> 00:50:20,319
postmodern

1617
00:50:23,910 --> 00:50:22,800
narratological thought on to us that was

1618
00:50:25,190 --> 00:50:23,920
was clearly nonsense

1619
00:50:27,190 --> 00:50:25,200
you know and it was this assumption that

1620
00:50:29,030 --> 00:50:27,200
there is no reality therefore

1621
00:50:30,230 --> 00:50:29,040
all the treaties are stories that's all

1622
00:50:31,750 --> 00:50:30,240
they are

1623
00:50:33,270 --> 00:50:31,760
i never quite understood how someone

1624
00:50:35,109 --> 00:50:33,280
felt that they would then there was a

1625
00:50:37,190 --> 00:50:35,119
good reason for anybody to pay them

1626
00:50:38,630 --> 00:50:37,200
to do this if they were saying it's all

1627
00:50:40,230 --> 00:50:38,640
nonsense but i'm going to tell you some

1628
00:50:41,030 --> 00:50:40,240
stories about it my reality is as good

1629
00:50:42,790 --> 00:50:41,040
as yours

1630
00:50:44,230 --> 00:50:42,800
you know it is nonsense and the thing

1631
00:50:45,670 --> 00:50:44,240
with josephus is

1632
00:50:48,390 --> 00:50:45,680
you know you can get the extreme cases

1633
00:50:50,950 --> 00:50:48,400
if you go to a site that is

1634
00:50:51,430 --> 00:50:50,960
i think it is gamala up on the golan

1635
00:50:53,750 --> 00:50:51,440
heights

1636
00:50:55,430 --> 00:50:53,760
storm by the romans in 67 josephus

1637
00:50:56,950 --> 00:50:55,440
describes the siege

1638
00:50:58,309 --> 00:50:56,960
the archaeologists in the local

1639
00:50:59,510 --> 00:50:58,319
archaeological unit took this very

1640
00:51:01,670 --> 00:50:59,520
seriously because they have bronze

1641
00:51:03,109 --> 00:51:01,680
plaques with quotes from josephus as you

1642
00:51:04,390 --> 00:51:03,119
go through the breach and all

1643
00:51:06,630 --> 00:51:04,400
but nevertheless it's clearly somewhere

1644
00:51:07,990 --> 00:51:06,640
that was besieged and stormed by the

1645
00:51:11,270 --> 00:51:08,000
romans and it fits well

1646
00:51:12,790 --> 00:51:11,280
enough um but it also fits in with

1647
00:51:14,950 --> 00:51:12,800
some of the exaggeration some of the

1648
00:51:16,390 --> 00:51:14,960
confusion and the you know we all get

1649
00:51:17,589 --> 00:51:16,400
things wrong we all have those moments

1650
00:51:18,870 --> 00:51:17,599
where we say the wrong word

1651
00:51:19,990 --> 00:51:18,880
and two thousand years later you're

1652
00:51:21,589 --> 00:51:20,000
looking and thinking oh no he must have

1653
00:51:22,549 --> 00:51:21,599
met something very significant by that

1654
00:51:25,670 --> 00:51:22,559
but

1655
00:51:26,549 --> 00:51:25,680
it's unfortunate that in the fashion in

1656
00:51:28,870 --> 00:51:26,559
modern

1657
00:51:31,349 --> 00:51:28,880
academic study of of so many disciplines

1658
00:51:31,829 --> 00:51:31,359
has become this very theoretical base

1659
00:51:33,829 --> 00:51:31,839
that

1660
00:51:34,950 --> 00:51:33,839
almost if you start spouting all these

1661
00:51:35,829 --> 00:51:34,960
words and saying you're going to do this

1662
00:51:38,390 --> 00:51:35,839
post-colonial

1663
00:51:39,030 --> 00:51:38,400
analysis it justifies what you're going

1664
00:51:41,349 --> 00:51:39,040
to do

1665
00:51:42,950 --> 00:51:41,359
regard rather than the actual content

1666
00:51:44,549 --> 00:51:42,960
with many of these these particular

1667
00:51:46,390 --> 00:51:44,559
approaches i don't particularly have

1668
00:51:48,150 --> 00:51:46,400
that much sympathy with them but

1669
00:51:49,589 --> 00:51:48,160
you can be a good historian or a good

1670
00:51:51,109 --> 00:51:49,599
archaeologist and

1671
00:51:53,990 --> 00:51:51,119
work with that approach as long as you

1672
00:51:55,589 --> 00:51:54,000
treat the evidence sensibly rationally

1673
00:51:57,190 --> 00:51:55,599
and you do everything else like a good

1674
00:51:58,150 --> 00:51:57,200
historian archaeologist or whatever it

1675
00:51:59,510 --> 00:51:58,160
might be and it

1676
00:52:01,670 --> 00:51:59,520
it does come back to this i mean you

1677
00:52:03,990 --> 00:52:01,680
have the basic problem if you look at

1678
00:52:05,910 --> 00:52:04,000
josephus narrative of the jewish

1679
00:52:07,030 --> 00:52:05,920
war say let alone the antiquities and

1680
00:52:08,309 --> 00:52:07,040
say well

1681
00:52:10,309 --> 00:52:08,319
i don't believe this because clearly you

1682
00:52:10,790 --> 00:52:10,319
know this is the guy who's telling you

1683
00:52:13,829 --> 00:52:10,800
that

1684
00:52:16,390 --> 00:52:13,839
um he's you know with his 40s he's got

1685
00:52:18,549 --> 00:52:16,400
he's about to be you know with his the

1686
00:52:19,589 --> 00:52:18,559
last few companions let's all draw lots

1687
00:52:21,190 --> 00:52:19,599
to see who's sort of

1688
00:52:22,710 --> 00:52:21,200
who's the last one to kill everybody

1689
00:52:23,829 --> 00:52:22,720
else you know this sort of thing and

1690
00:52:25,589 --> 00:52:23,839
you know you're looking and thinking oh

1691
00:52:26,950 --> 00:52:25,599
and it was just luck and divine choice

1692
00:52:27,670 --> 00:52:26,960
that made that i'm the one who survived

1693
00:52:29,270 --> 00:52:27,680
you think

1694
00:52:30,950 --> 00:52:29,280
these poor blokes have had a fast one

1695
00:52:32,710 --> 00:52:30,960
pulled on them by him

1696
00:52:34,630 --> 00:52:32,720
which again is so that there's an

1697
00:52:35,829 --> 00:52:34,640
element where you know because in his

1698
00:52:37,190 --> 00:52:35,839
life for instance you know he's

1699
00:52:38,950 --> 00:52:37,200
defending himself against all the

1700
00:52:39,670 --> 00:52:38,960
accusations made against him by other

1701
00:52:41,190 --> 00:52:39,680
people so

1702
00:52:42,790 --> 00:52:41,200
there's an element where some of what

1703
00:52:44,950 --> 00:52:42,800
went on is common knowledge

1704
00:52:46,549 --> 00:52:44,960
at least other people's versions of it

1705
00:52:48,790 --> 00:52:46,559
and yes

1706
00:52:49,589 --> 00:52:48,800
you get any people describing the same

1707
00:52:51,030 --> 00:52:49,599
event

1708
00:52:52,710 --> 00:52:51,040
and they're not going to describe it

1709
00:52:53,990 --> 00:52:52,720
identically but you know i mean the

1710
00:52:56,390 --> 00:52:54,000
thing i always look at in

1711
00:52:57,750 --> 00:52:56,400
josephus from a parapolitical standpoint

1712
00:53:00,309 --> 00:52:57,760
which jumps out at me

1713
00:53:01,589 --> 00:53:00,319
is he comes out and he says and this is

1714
00:53:03,510 --> 00:53:01,599
like every

1715
00:53:04,950 --> 00:53:03,520
certainly every bbc documentary i've

1716
00:53:05,510 --> 00:53:04,960
watched but every history channel i've

1717
00:53:07,510 --> 00:53:05,520
watched

1718
00:53:09,030 --> 00:53:07,520
in addition to what i've read kind of

1719
00:53:11,589 --> 00:53:09,040
totally skips over this part

1720
00:53:12,309 --> 00:53:11,599
he comes out and he says hey i figured

1721
00:53:14,710 --> 00:53:12,319
this out

1722
00:53:16,549 --> 00:53:14,720
because i am like super jew you know i

1723
00:53:17,790 --> 00:53:16,559
was down at the temple when i was 14 i

1724
00:53:21,030 --> 00:53:17,800
knew all this stuff

1725
00:53:22,549 --> 00:53:21,040
vespasian is the messiah i've read the

1726
00:53:25,990 --> 00:53:22,559
whole thing i figured it all out

1727
00:53:28,470 --> 00:53:26,000
this i mean this is so clearly

1728
00:53:30,230 --> 00:53:28,480
serving this agenda that the romans have

1729
00:53:32,470 --> 00:53:30,240
that you know if i can defeat you with

1730
00:53:34,470 --> 00:53:32,480
uh sticks and arrows great but if i can

1731
00:53:35,910 --> 00:53:34,480
co-op your belief system and that

1732
00:53:37,750 --> 00:53:35,920
reduces your

1733
00:53:39,510 --> 00:53:37,760
will to fight all the better i mean

1734
00:53:40,790 --> 00:53:39,520
there's no other way to read that i

1735
00:53:42,069 --> 00:53:40,800
don't think

1736
00:53:44,069 --> 00:53:42,079
and it's clearly and the fact that he

1737
00:53:44,710 --> 00:53:44,079
wrote an aramaic version as well is to

1738
00:53:46,230 --> 00:53:44,720
tell

1739
00:53:47,829 --> 00:53:46,240
jewish people in babylon look you don't

1740
00:53:49,750 --> 00:53:47,839
want to do this you know it's this

1741
00:53:52,309 --> 00:53:49,760
and it's you're sitting there in rome

1742
00:53:54,549 --> 00:53:52,319
you've been made a roman citizen

1743
00:53:57,190 --> 00:53:54,559
with 200 with 200 of your friends and

1744
00:54:01,030 --> 00:53:57,200
the villa of of vespasian yes

1745
00:54:01,670 --> 00:54:01,040
um so the the problem of course is is

1746
00:54:03,430 --> 00:54:01,680
that

1747
00:54:04,950 --> 00:54:03,440
if we just decide we can't believe

1748
00:54:05,910 --> 00:54:04,960
anything he says then we have very

1749
00:54:07,750 --> 00:54:05,920
little

1750
00:54:10,309 --> 00:54:07,760
and you know there are some things you

1751
00:54:11,990 --> 00:54:10,319
can verify the details of

1752
00:54:13,670 --> 00:54:12,000
particularly you know some of the stuff

1753
00:54:15,510 --> 00:54:13,680
about the roman army units involved

1754
00:54:16,790 --> 00:54:15,520
names of commanders we start to identify

1755
00:54:17,510 --> 00:54:16,800
so these people are around but he's

1756
00:54:19,109 --> 00:54:17,520
giving you

1757
00:54:20,710 --> 00:54:19,119
it's it's the same basic problem if you

1758
00:54:22,230 --> 00:54:20,720
look at julius caesar's account of his

1759
00:54:25,750 --> 00:54:22,240
conquest of gaul

1760
00:54:27,670 --> 00:54:25,760
you know think how patton anybody else

1761
00:54:29,349 --> 00:54:27,680
would have loved to be judged by history

1762
00:54:31,109 --> 00:54:29,359
purely by their own version of what they

1763
00:54:32,870 --> 00:54:31,119
did um

1764
00:54:34,390 --> 00:54:32,880
you know napoleon was trying to do this

1765
00:54:35,670 --> 00:54:34,400
on san helina after

1766
00:54:37,349 --> 00:54:35,680
the owner yeah i didn't really lose

1767
00:54:38,950 --> 00:54:37,359
waterloo it was everybody else's fault

1768
00:54:40,390 --> 00:54:38,960
and you know and i'd i'd really beaten

1769
00:54:41,990 --> 00:54:40,400
the british anyway when those prussians

1770
00:54:43,670 --> 00:54:42,000
just turned up and nobody knew that was

1771
00:54:47,510 --> 00:54:43,680
going to happen you know i could never

1772
00:54:50,789 --> 00:54:47,520
um but again with all of these things

1773
00:54:52,630 --> 00:54:50,799
there's a lot they have just most of the

1774
00:54:54,390 --> 00:54:52,640
best propaganda and most of the best

1775
00:54:56,549 --> 00:54:54,400
lies starts with a sort of

1776
00:54:58,309 --> 00:54:56,559
kernel of truth if you keep the big

1777
00:54:58,789 --> 00:54:58,319
things then you can slip more and more

1778
00:55:01,829 --> 00:54:58,799
in

1779
00:55:04,870 --> 00:55:01,839
from the start then

1780
00:55:06,950 --> 00:55:04,880
no one's going to read it so again i've

1781
00:55:09,190 --> 00:55:06,960
i confess i've used josephus a lot

1782
00:55:11,190 --> 00:55:09,200
because as a source for the roman army

1783
00:55:12,789 --> 00:55:11,200
no one else describes the army of that

1784
00:55:14,150 --> 00:55:12,799
period actually doing what army's

1785
00:55:16,390 --> 00:55:14,160
supposed to do and fighting

1786
00:55:17,750 --> 00:55:16,400
compared to josephus and we don't have

1787
00:55:19,990 --> 00:55:17,760
anyone else

1788
00:55:22,069 --> 00:55:20,000
talking about what it's like to face the

1789
00:55:22,470 --> 00:55:22,079
romans so when he talks about you know

1790
00:55:27,109 --> 00:55:22,480
the

1791
00:55:28,549 --> 00:55:27,119
was so clever i got my men to cover

1792
00:55:29,910 --> 00:55:28,559
their ears so we were all right we

1793
00:55:32,950 --> 00:55:29,920
didn't worry but it's

1794
00:55:34,230 --> 00:55:32,960
it's giving you a sense of what it might

1795
00:55:36,789 --> 00:55:34,240
have been like that you

1796
00:55:38,470 --> 00:55:36,799
you don't otherwise get so it's useful

1797
00:55:39,990 --> 00:55:38,480
and it's useful for lots of the

1798
00:55:42,789 --> 00:55:40,000
often with these people the things they

1799
00:55:45,190 --> 00:55:42,799
say almost as an aside

1800
00:55:45,990 --> 00:55:45,200
it's easier to rely upon more but you

1801
00:55:49,109 --> 00:55:46,000
need

1802
00:55:49,990 --> 00:55:49,119
come from right from the first you've

1803
00:55:51,510 --> 00:55:50,000
got to

1804
00:55:53,109 --> 00:55:51,520
have worked out you know what's the

1805
00:55:54,630 --> 00:55:53,119
agenda what are they doing what are they

1806
00:55:55,589 --> 00:55:54,640
trying to do and therefore how does that

1807
00:55:56,950 --> 00:55:55,599
affect how i treat

1808
00:55:58,789 --> 00:55:56,960
all of this and that's you know that's

1809
00:56:01,270 --> 00:55:58,799
sort of basic stuff you should be doing

1810
00:56:03,670 --> 00:56:01,280
the problem is

1811
00:56:06,150 --> 00:56:03,680
again if in a dis academic discipline if

1812
00:56:08,230 --> 00:56:06,160
this becomes merely a text

1813
00:56:10,069 --> 00:56:08,240
then none of that matters reality

1814
00:56:11,670 --> 00:56:10,079
doesn't matter um you can't get back to

1815
00:56:12,630 --> 00:56:11,680
reality anyway so don't worry about it

1816
00:56:14,470 --> 00:56:12,640
but

1817
00:56:16,230 --> 00:56:14,480
you know it's striking with josephus on

1818
00:56:18,390 --> 00:56:16,240
the whole

1819
00:56:20,470 --> 00:56:18,400
his accounts the scriptures of buildings

1820
00:56:21,750 --> 00:56:20,480
tie up very well with the archaeology

1821
00:56:24,630 --> 00:56:21,760
when we have it

1822
00:56:26,230 --> 00:56:24,640
um there are some peculiarities i mean

1823
00:56:28,630 --> 00:56:26,240
there's the idea when he talks about

1824
00:56:30,309 --> 00:56:28,640
some of these uh valleys and chasms that

1825
00:56:32,950 --> 00:56:30,319
are so deep you can't see the bottom

1826
00:56:34,390 --> 00:56:32,960
she does a couple of times and i quite

1827
00:56:35,670 --> 00:56:34,400
like the one i did the idea because i

1828
00:56:37,030 --> 00:56:35,680
wear glasses that maybe he's just

1829
00:56:39,109 --> 00:56:37,040
short-sighted and he can't but

1830
00:56:40,230 --> 00:56:39,119
i suspect it is simply exaggeration or

1831
00:56:40,950 --> 00:56:40,240
in the same way you have all this stuff

1832
00:56:42,150 --> 00:56:40,960
this is

1833
00:56:43,910 --> 00:56:42,160
going to be about the greatest war in

1834
00:56:45,349 --> 00:56:43,920
history which is what thucydides has

1835
00:56:48,069 --> 00:56:45,359
said everybody else has said

1836
00:56:50,630 --> 00:56:48,079
it's fairly standard in ancient history

1837
00:56:54,150 --> 00:56:52,069
with all of these things you'd love to

1838
00:56:54,870 --> 00:56:54,160
have more you'd love to have someone you

1839
00:56:57,910 --> 00:56:54,880
could set

1840
00:56:59,349 --> 00:56:57,920
against this you'd even like the

1841
00:57:01,349 --> 00:56:59,359
official roman version you know the

1842
00:57:02,150 --> 00:57:01,359
commentaries of titus and vespasian that

1843
00:57:05,430 --> 00:57:02,160
he says he

1844
00:57:07,589 --> 00:57:05,440
he used what did they actually say

1845
00:57:09,030 --> 00:57:07,599
and what's that it's rather like i mean

1846
00:57:09,430 --> 00:57:09,040
one of the most frustrating things of

1847
00:57:11,030 --> 00:57:09,440
all

1848
00:57:12,870 --> 00:57:11,040
is if you go to rome you can see

1849
00:57:14,309 --> 00:57:12,880
trajan's column there in the middle of

1850
00:57:16,069 --> 00:57:14,319
trajan's forum and it's got

1851
00:57:17,750 --> 00:57:16,079
hundreds and hundreds of scenes with

1852
00:57:19,910 --> 00:57:17,760
thousands of figures very

1853
00:57:21,829 --> 00:57:19,920
intricately carved of roman soldiers

1854
00:57:25,270 --> 00:57:21,839
fighting of bridges of

1855
00:57:27,030 --> 00:57:25,280
um forts of dacians they're fighting

1856
00:57:30,069 --> 00:57:27,040
but we don't know the stories of that

1857
00:57:31,589 --> 00:57:30,079
war and clearly this is telling a story

1858
00:57:33,589 --> 00:57:31,599
and there are bits where you're probably

1859
00:57:34,230 --> 00:57:33,599
supposed to recognize where this is who

1860
00:57:36,230 --> 00:57:34,240
this is

1861
00:57:38,470 --> 00:57:36,240
what's going on um you know the bayer

1862
00:57:38,870 --> 00:57:38,480
tapestry is is famous over here because

1863
00:57:40,710 --> 00:57:38,880
it's

1864
00:57:42,069 --> 00:57:40,720
1066 in the norman conquest it was

1865
00:57:44,390 --> 00:57:42,079
something we all did in school

1866
00:57:46,230 --> 00:57:44,400
in my day though not now but it's got

1867
00:57:49,109 --> 00:57:46,240
these nice bits of latin capture

1868
00:57:51,030 --> 00:57:49,119
captions embroidered into it and we know

1869
00:57:52,470 --> 00:57:51,040
more about the story this is like

1870
00:57:54,630 --> 00:57:52,480
not having the captions and not having

1871
00:57:55,510 --> 00:57:54,640
the story at all it's like watching a

1872
00:57:57,270 --> 00:57:55,520
foreign film

1873
00:57:58,870 --> 00:57:57,280
and you know there's some cultural

1874
00:58:02,710 --> 00:57:58,880
references that exactly

1875
00:58:05,430 --> 00:58:02,720
yes um or something silent

1876
00:58:07,349 --> 00:58:05,440
you know you don't get what's good so

1877
00:58:08,870 --> 00:58:07,359
it's it's

1878
00:58:10,789 --> 00:58:08,880
that's the that's the big problem and

1879
00:58:11,109 --> 00:58:10,799
it's there in all of anxious because you

1880
00:58:14,230 --> 00:58:11,119
so

1881
00:58:17,109 --> 00:58:14,240
rarely get more than one side

1882
00:58:18,630 --> 00:58:17,119
for the same event and um you know one

1883
00:58:20,549 --> 00:58:18,640
of the main points i tried to make in

1884
00:58:22,230 --> 00:58:20,559
the book on philip and alexander is that

1885
00:58:23,670 --> 00:58:22,240
we talk a lot about alexander the great

1886
00:58:25,270 --> 00:58:23,680
and there's been this great

1887
00:58:26,630 --> 00:58:25,280
um you know for a long time this this

1888
00:58:28,390 --> 00:58:26,640
scholarly view that there was this sort

1889
00:58:29,910 --> 00:58:28,400
of official version and then what they

1890
00:58:31,589 --> 00:58:29,920
call the vulgate the more critical

1891
00:58:32,230 --> 00:58:31,599
version of alexander they all go back to

1892
00:58:35,109 --> 00:58:32,240
these are

1893
00:58:35,589 --> 00:58:35,119
you know a few basic sources but

1894
00:58:39,750 --> 00:58:35,599
actually

1895
00:58:41,829 --> 00:58:39,760
all that we have was written down

1896
00:58:43,589 --> 00:58:41,839
three four hundred years later after

1897
00:58:45,589 --> 00:58:43,599
alexander's death

1898
00:58:47,670 --> 00:58:45,599
and we're just assuming that this is

1899
00:58:50,150 --> 00:58:47,680
accurate and we're assuming that they've

1900
00:58:50,950 --> 00:58:50,160
used the earlier sources um you know you

1901
00:58:53,109 --> 00:58:50,960
don't have

1902
00:58:55,190 --> 00:58:53,119
in the same way you can look at first

1903
00:58:57,190 --> 00:58:55,200
century bc and you have something

1904
00:58:58,549 --> 00:58:57,200
in caesar's own words you have lots in

1905
00:59:00,390 --> 00:58:58,559
cicero's own words

1906
00:59:01,670 --> 00:59:00,400
you get a sense you know from cicero you

1907
00:59:03,349 --> 00:59:01,680
can tell

1908
00:59:04,630 --> 00:59:03,359
what at least he thought was funny some

1909
00:59:06,150 --> 00:59:04,640
of the jokes that were circulating at

1910
00:59:06,870 --> 00:59:06,160
the time the jokes he felt he could make

1911
00:59:09,190 --> 00:59:06,880
to a

1912
00:59:11,030 --> 00:59:09,200
to the the court but also to the

1913
00:59:11,910 --> 00:59:11,040
bystanders the people hanging around in

1914
00:59:15,910 --> 00:59:11,920
the forum

1915
00:59:18,390 --> 00:59:15,920
watching the trial when it's going on

1916
00:59:19,030 --> 00:59:18,400
that makes them again much more human it

1917
00:59:20,630 --> 00:59:19,040
gives them more

1918
00:59:22,789 --> 00:59:20,640
more of a sense of their personalities

1919
00:59:26,309 --> 00:59:22,799
than we can ever really get

1920
00:59:27,910 --> 00:59:26,319
for um philip and alexander so

1921
00:59:29,510 --> 00:59:27,920
there are these problems and depending

1922
00:59:31,589 --> 00:59:29,520
on the topic you look at in the subject

1923
00:59:35,430 --> 00:59:31,599
you look at that the sources will vary

1924
00:59:36,470 --> 00:59:35,440
you know one of the um paradoxes really

1925
00:59:38,069 --> 00:59:36,480
is that if you look at the second

1926
00:59:39,829 --> 00:59:38,079
century a.d

1927
00:59:41,510 --> 00:59:39,839
which is the height of the roman empire

1928
00:59:42,150 --> 00:59:41,520
you've got famous emperors like trajan

1929
00:59:45,109 --> 00:59:42,160
hadrian

1930
00:59:47,190 --> 00:59:45,119
marcus aurelius you know you have marcus

1931
00:59:48,950 --> 00:59:47,200
aurelius meditations that

1932
00:59:50,710 --> 00:59:48,960
is a remarkable document because when

1933
00:59:52,230 --> 00:59:50,720
you you know most philosophers

1934
00:59:54,069 --> 00:59:52,240
come out with great ideas but they don't

1935
00:59:54,870 --> 00:59:54,079
have to put them into event this fellow

1936
00:59:57,190 --> 00:59:54,880
is in charge of

1937
00:59:58,789 --> 00:59:57,200
large part of the world and when he's

1938
01:00:00,950 --> 00:59:58,799
talking about how difficult it is to get

1939
01:00:03,109 --> 01:00:00,960
up on a cold morning out of a warm bed

1940
01:00:04,230 --> 01:00:03,119
you know a you immediately recognize

1941
01:00:07,109 --> 01:00:04,240
that

1942
01:00:08,390 --> 01:00:07,119
but it's also but he talks very little

1943
01:00:10,309 --> 01:00:08,400
other than the whole you know you must

1944
01:00:11,510 --> 01:00:10,319
not become too much a caesar you must be

1945
01:00:12,630 --> 01:00:11,520
tolerant you must be

1946
01:00:14,150 --> 01:00:12,640
all of these good things you should

1947
01:00:15,430 --> 01:00:14,160
aspire to and the worry that you will be

1948
01:00:17,510 --> 01:00:15,440
corrupted by power

1949
01:00:19,190 --> 01:00:17,520
you know it's it's admirable to have

1950
01:00:20,470 --> 01:00:19,200
someone in that position thinking in

1951
01:00:22,230 --> 01:00:20,480
this way

1952
01:00:23,750 --> 01:00:22,240
but actually that second century period

1953
01:00:25,990 --> 01:00:23,760
of history we know

1954
01:00:27,430 --> 01:00:26,000
very very little about the archaeology

1955
01:00:28,870 --> 01:00:27,440
is some of the most spectacular from the

1956
01:00:30,390 --> 01:00:28,880
entire roman period

1957
01:00:31,430 --> 01:00:30,400
the monuments are you know this is a lot

1958
01:00:33,829 --> 01:00:31,440
of the great stuff this is when the

1959
01:00:36,470 --> 01:00:33,839
empire is at its most prosperous

1960
01:00:38,309 --> 01:00:36,480
but we don't have any good narrative

1961
01:00:40,150 --> 01:00:38,319
histories of any part of it

1962
01:00:42,470 --> 01:00:40,160
adrian let me throw it let me throw out

1963
01:00:44,230 --> 01:00:42,480
one pet theory just indulge me it'll be

1964
01:00:45,109 --> 01:00:44,240
short but it has kind of emerged from a

1965
01:00:48,150 --> 01:00:45,119
couple of different

1966
01:00:49,750 --> 01:00:48,160
guests that i've talked to so josephus

1967
01:00:52,710 --> 01:00:49,760
kind of famously

1968
01:00:53,670 --> 01:00:52,720
says hey and i have a revelation you're

1969
01:00:56,230 --> 01:00:53,680
going to be

1970
01:00:57,030 --> 01:00:56,240
you know caesar and the in the copper

1971
01:01:00,870 --> 01:00:57,040
scrolls

1972
01:01:02,470 --> 01:01:00,880
is a treasure map

1973
01:01:05,349 --> 01:01:02,480
and at the bottom of the treasure map it

1974
01:01:08,870 --> 01:01:05,359
says and this is a copy

1975
01:01:12,150 --> 01:01:08,880
josephus being josephus super elite

1976
01:01:15,270 --> 01:01:12,160
among the jewish elite what if he knows

1977
01:01:17,430 --> 01:01:15,280
basically the idea what's in

1978
01:01:19,190 --> 01:01:17,440
the information contained in that copper

1979
01:01:21,750 --> 01:01:19,200
scroll what if he has

1980
01:01:23,750 --> 01:01:21,760
the treasure map in his head and what if

1981
01:01:23,990 --> 01:01:23,760
that is his real bargaining chip with

1982
01:01:26,069 --> 01:01:24,000
this

1983
01:01:27,589 --> 01:01:26,079
basin because it is interesting isn't it

1984
01:01:30,390 --> 01:01:27,599
that vespasian who is

1985
01:01:30,710 --> 01:01:30,400
the soldier soldier but really you know

1986
01:01:34,150 --> 01:01:30,720
in

1987
01:01:35,829 --> 01:01:34,160
doesn't

1988
01:01:37,990 --> 01:01:35,839
you know it has kind of been cast out by

1989
01:01:39,670 --> 01:01:38,000
nero something happens

1990
01:01:41,109 --> 01:01:39,680
and now he goes down to egypt and he

1991
01:01:43,910 --> 01:01:41,119
seems to have a lot of dough

1992
01:01:44,870 --> 01:01:43,920
to assemble an army and he shows up in

1993
01:01:46,549 --> 01:01:44,880
rome and

1994
01:01:49,109 --> 01:01:46,559
everyone's like oh okay i guess you're

1995
01:01:50,950 --> 01:01:49,119
the guy how far off is that do we have

1996
01:01:52,309 --> 01:01:50,960
anything that would directly contradict

1997
01:01:53,510 --> 01:01:52,319
that idea i mean the thing is you've got

1998
01:01:57,270 --> 01:01:53,520
to remember the timing

1999
01:01:59,589 --> 01:01:57,280
so this is 67. nero's still alive

2000
01:02:01,430 --> 01:01:59,599
until a few months later where all the

2001
01:02:02,710 --> 01:02:01,440
bad decisions and the craziness he's

2002
01:02:04,230 --> 01:02:02,720
done i mean i've just been to the

2003
01:02:05,910 --> 01:02:04,240
british museum has a very nice

2004
01:02:07,430 --> 01:02:05,920
exhibition about nero but they've

2005
01:02:08,870 --> 01:02:07,440
they've tried over the top to be

2006
01:02:10,470 --> 01:02:08,880
controversial by saying you know he was

2007
01:02:12,710 --> 01:02:10,480
just misunderstood and

2008
01:02:14,150 --> 01:02:12,720
um with fire wasn't his fault and yeah

2009
01:02:15,270 --> 01:02:14,160
so he persecuted all these christians

2010
01:02:16,549 --> 01:02:15,280
but you know that's the sort of thing

2011
01:02:18,549 --> 01:02:16,559
the romans did and

2012
01:02:19,670 --> 01:02:18,559
it was just hostile sources saying you

2013
01:02:21,270 --> 01:02:19,680
know nero

2014
01:02:23,430 --> 01:02:21,280
might have started well but turned into

2015
01:02:25,910 --> 01:02:23,440
a very bad emperor and when you think

2016
01:02:27,589 --> 01:02:25,920
again take a teenager with no experience

2017
01:02:29,349 --> 01:02:27,599
of politics public life

2018
01:02:30,870 --> 01:02:29,359
military and suddenly say you're in

2019
01:02:32,230 --> 01:02:30,880
charge of the world and nobody's going

2020
01:02:34,230 --> 01:02:32,240
to ever say no to you

2021
01:02:36,309 --> 01:02:34,240
no it's probably not going to go well

2022
01:02:38,150 --> 01:02:36,319
this is the so it shouldn't surprise in

2023
01:02:40,390 --> 01:02:38,160
fact it should surprise us it goes as

2024
01:02:42,150 --> 01:02:40,400
well for as long as it does and you know

2025
01:02:44,309 --> 01:02:42,160
the whole killing your mother and

2026
01:02:45,270 --> 01:02:44,319
assassinating all these sort of various

2027
01:02:47,910 --> 01:02:45,280
wives this

2028
01:02:48,470 --> 01:02:47,920
it's it's not surprising so the whole

2029
01:02:51,589 --> 01:02:48,480
empire

2030
01:02:52,069 --> 01:02:51,599
is suddenly for the first time really

2031
01:02:53,670 --> 01:02:52,079
since

2032
01:02:55,829 --> 01:02:53,680
they haven't when augustus died and they

2033
01:02:57,589 --> 01:02:55,839
didn't know that tiberius would take

2034
01:02:59,510 --> 01:02:57,599
over there would be another emperor

2035
01:03:01,349 --> 01:02:59,520
civil war is no longer in living memory

2036
01:03:02,309 --> 01:03:01,359
but it's a possibility everyone knows

2037
01:03:04,309 --> 01:03:02,319
about so

2038
01:03:05,349 --> 01:03:04,319
vespasian yeah this fellow surrenders

2039
01:03:06,309 --> 01:03:05,359
and suddenly says yeah

2040
01:03:07,190 --> 01:03:06,319
look at all these wonderful things

2041
01:03:09,109 --> 01:03:07,200
you're going to be emperor it's going to

2042
01:03:11,670 --> 01:03:09,119
be great roman sources are full of these

2043
01:03:13,109 --> 01:03:11,680
prophecies of people's future glory

2044
01:03:14,230 --> 01:03:13,119
some of which may be true you know we

2045
01:03:15,430 --> 01:03:14,240
don't know of all the people who were

2046
01:03:17,029 --> 01:03:15,440
told they were going to have great

2047
01:03:17,990 --> 01:03:17,039
things and it never quite panned out for

2048
01:03:21,910 --> 01:03:18,000
them

2049
01:03:24,150 --> 01:03:21,920
in vespasian's case he is in charge

2050
01:03:25,589 --> 01:03:24,160
of the biggest field army that's

2051
01:03:29,430 --> 01:03:25,599
operating at the time

2052
01:03:30,710 --> 01:03:29,440
and the eastern provinces have almost a

2053
01:03:32,630 --> 01:03:30,720
third

2054
01:03:33,829 --> 01:03:32,640
of the entire roman army stationed in

2055
01:03:35,750 --> 01:03:33,839
them and

2056
01:03:37,109 --> 01:03:35,760
part of that is in egypt which can't be

2057
01:03:40,230 --> 01:03:37,119
governed by a senator so

2058
01:03:41,910 --> 01:03:40,240
can't produce a claimant to the throne

2059
01:03:43,750 --> 01:03:41,920
and when the syrian governor is willing

2060
01:03:45,270 --> 01:03:43,760
to do a deal with you but again with

2061
01:03:47,190 --> 01:03:45,280
vespasian's case you know that

2062
01:03:49,190 --> 01:03:47,200
galba the first successor he's sending

2063
01:03:51,190 --> 01:03:49,200
his son titus to go and say yes look i'm

2064
01:03:53,349 --> 01:03:51,200
a good little boy i'm on your side

2065
01:03:55,990 --> 01:03:53,359
he doesn't he isn't the first to commit

2066
01:03:57,750 --> 01:03:56,000
it's only once the fighting started

2067
01:03:59,029 --> 01:03:57,760
that he then commits because you get to

2068
01:04:00,309 --> 01:03:59,039
the point where if you're in charge of

2069
01:04:01,829 --> 01:04:00,319
an army

2070
01:04:03,270 --> 01:04:01,839
you're either going to die or you're

2071
01:04:04,390 --> 01:04:03,280
going to become emperor because no one's

2072
01:04:06,549 --> 01:04:04,400
going to trust you

2073
01:04:08,230 --> 01:04:06,559
and unless you're very very sure of your

2074
01:04:09,750 --> 01:04:08,240
alliance with whoever's winning

2075
01:04:11,190 --> 01:04:09,760
and particularly as the emperors that

2076
01:04:12,309 --> 01:04:11,200
they're choosing don't seem that good

2077
01:04:15,109 --> 01:04:12,319
and once the

2078
01:04:17,270 --> 01:04:15,119
danubian legions join him then he's got

2079
01:04:19,829 --> 01:04:17,280
nearly half the roman army

2080
01:04:22,230 --> 01:04:19,839
on his side so there is an awful lot and

2081
01:04:23,829 --> 01:04:22,240
those resources bear in mind as well

2082
01:04:25,589 --> 01:04:23,839
the east is where the real money is

2083
01:04:28,069 --> 01:04:25,599
still at this stage

2084
01:04:29,270 --> 01:04:28,079
so when people there want to back you

2085
01:04:30,630 --> 01:04:29,280
they also want

2086
01:04:33,109 --> 01:04:30,640
i mean the paradox is if you look at the

2087
01:04:34,549 --> 01:04:33,119
first century bc the eastern province is

2088
01:04:36,789 --> 01:04:34,559
always back the loser

2089
01:04:39,029 --> 01:04:36,799
in rome civil wars it's pompey it's

2090
01:04:40,549 --> 01:04:39,039
brutus and cassius it's mark anthony

2091
01:04:41,990 --> 01:04:40,559
but it isn't really their fault it's

2092
01:04:42,470 --> 01:04:42,000
just those are the people who keep going

2093
01:04:43,750 --> 01:04:42,480
to them

2094
01:04:45,109 --> 01:04:43,760
but they give them lots of money and

2095
01:04:46,470 --> 01:04:45,119
then the victor comes along and says

2096
01:04:47,829 --> 01:04:46,480
well you're on the wrong side you know

2097
01:04:49,829 --> 01:04:47,839
be nice if you could just just to be

2098
01:04:52,390 --> 01:04:49,839
friends just reassure me by giving

2099
01:04:53,750 --> 01:04:52,400
so i think there's there's plenty of of

2100
01:04:56,470 --> 01:04:53,760
logic but again

2101
01:04:57,750 --> 01:04:56,480
had the the decisive battle of the civil

2102
01:04:59,589 --> 01:04:57,760
war is fought by

2103
01:05:01,510 --> 01:04:59,599
only an advance guard of troops lawyers

2104
01:05:02,870 --> 01:05:01,520
of espacie and if they lost

2105
01:05:04,710 --> 01:05:02,880
things might have turned out very

2106
01:05:05,750 --> 01:05:04,720
differently and it's a confusing night

2107
01:05:07,270 --> 01:05:05,760
engagement

2108
01:05:10,069 --> 01:05:07,280
you know so lots could have gone wrong

2109
01:05:11,829 --> 01:05:10,079
and none of these armies are really

2110
01:05:13,670 --> 01:05:11,839
the veteran troops from judea don't

2111
01:05:15,029 --> 01:05:13,680
actually get to the fighting

2112
01:05:17,270 --> 01:05:15,039
even though there's you know so these

2113
01:05:19,029 --> 01:05:17,280
are ones that because for long periods

2114
01:05:21,029 --> 01:05:19,039
in in roman history

2115
01:05:22,710 --> 01:05:21,039
the army the empire is so powerful there

2116
01:05:24,069 --> 01:05:22,720
isn't that much fighting going on so you

2117
01:05:25,589 --> 01:05:24,079
don't have

2118
01:05:27,349 --> 01:05:25,599
armies that are used to fighting on a

2119
01:05:29,109 --> 01:05:27,359
grand scale which is what you need to do

2120
01:05:31,109 --> 01:05:29,119
when you fight other romans so it tends

2121
01:05:33,270 --> 01:05:31,119
to make civil wars all about numbers

2122
01:05:34,390 --> 01:05:33,280
and a lot less predictable than they

2123
01:05:37,029 --> 01:05:34,400
might otherwise be

2124
01:05:38,150 --> 01:05:37,039
so again it'd be a question of how i'm

2125
01:05:39,670 --> 01:05:38,160
looking at it if i look at it as a

2126
01:05:41,349 --> 01:05:39,680
historian i would say

2127
01:05:42,710 --> 01:05:41,359
there are all those factors and the

2128
01:05:45,589 --> 01:05:42,720
chance and

2129
01:05:47,829 --> 01:05:45,599
vespasian is so unusual and even in

2130
01:05:48,230 --> 01:05:47,839
seretonius he's the only man described

2131
01:05:49,589 --> 01:05:48,240
who

2132
01:05:51,589 --> 01:05:49,599
where it said that his character

2133
01:05:54,470 --> 01:05:51,599
improved once he became emperor

2134
01:05:55,670 --> 01:05:54,480
and he gets a remarkably good press even

2135
01:05:56,789 --> 01:05:55,680
though they thought he was mean they

2136
01:05:58,069 --> 01:05:56,799
thought he was stinging they didn't

2137
01:05:59,430 --> 01:05:58,079
really like him he wasn't one of the

2138
01:06:00,950 --> 01:05:59,440
proper aristocracy but

2139
01:06:03,029 --> 01:06:00,960
i do wonder if he just had somebody who

2140
01:06:05,589 --> 01:06:03,039
was genuinely very good

2141
01:06:06,309 --> 01:06:05,599
and able and as well to plan this

2142
01:06:07,910 --> 01:06:06,319
unlucky

2143
01:06:09,750 --> 01:06:07,920
which everybody had to be and the romans

2144
01:06:11,589 --> 01:06:09,760
were quite happy to acknowledge

2145
01:06:14,390 --> 01:06:11,599
so as the historian i would tell it that

2146
01:06:15,829 --> 01:06:14,400
way as a novelist i would start thinking

2147
01:06:18,230 --> 01:06:15,839
there's a good story and i'd push

2148
01:06:21,349 --> 01:06:18,240
possibilities in a way

2149
01:06:23,029 --> 01:06:21,359
because you can but the historian in me

2150
01:06:23,910 --> 01:06:23,039
has to say look that's the evidence as

2151
01:06:26,870 --> 01:06:23,920
far as it goes

2152
01:06:28,150 --> 01:06:26,880
anything else is possible so much is

2153
01:06:30,309 --> 01:06:28,160
possible there is so much we will

2154
01:06:31,750 --> 01:06:30,319
probably never know the real truth

2155
01:06:33,589 --> 01:06:31,760
you bring up some really good some

2156
01:06:36,069 --> 01:06:33,599
really really good kind of

2157
01:06:37,670 --> 01:06:36,079
counter arguments that don't exactly

2158
01:06:39,109 --> 01:06:37,680
argue against it but kind of

2159
01:06:40,950 --> 01:06:39,119
counter evidence that has to be

2160
01:06:42,309 --> 01:06:40,960
considered so i really appreciate that i

2161
01:06:44,549 --> 01:06:42,319
tell you what we're at an

2162
01:06:46,870 --> 01:06:44,559
hour do we have a few more minutes for

2163
01:06:48,470 --> 01:06:46,880
maybe a lightning round here

2164
01:06:50,150 --> 01:06:48,480
we could try yeah i'm not very good at

2165
01:06:53,750 --> 01:06:50,160
short answers as you may have noticed

2166
01:06:55,910 --> 01:06:53,760
no no no take your time i i'm i'm

2167
01:06:57,430 --> 01:06:55,920
thoroughly enjoying every every minute

2168
01:06:57,990 --> 01:06:57,440
of that and i think the audience will as

2169
01:07:00,390 --> 01:06:58,000
well

2170
01:07:01,430 --> 01:07:00,400
so we're soaking it up so my final kind

2171
01:07:04,390 --> 01:07:01,440
of point was

2172
01:07:05,190 --> 01:07:04,400
on the the roman way the roman playbook

2173
01:07:08,549 --> 01:07:05,200
if you will

2174
01:07:10,470 --> 01:07:08,559
that you reveal so many times and so

2175
01:07:12,470 --> 01:07:10,480
many different interesting ways

2176
01:07:14,069 --> 01:07:12,480
a couple of them that we've all heard

2177
01:07:16,870 --> 01:07:14,079
that you might want to com comment on

2178
01:07:17,510 --> 01:07:16,880
is divide and rule uh another one that i

2179
01:07:19,349 --> 01:07:17,520
really like

2180
01:07:22,309 --> 01:07:19,359
that i got from you is spare the

2181
01:07:25,510 --> 01:07:22,319
conquered overcome the proud with war

2182
01:07:26,150 --> 01:07:25,520
maybe even tie those two together in a

2183
01:07:27,589 --> 01:07:26,160
way

2184
01:07:29,029 --> 01:07:27,599
well spare the con could overcome the

2185
01:07:30,789 --> 01:07:29,039
problem with war i can't take credit for

2186
01:07:32,950 --> 01:07:30,799
that that's the poet virgil who was

2187
01:07:34,150 --> 01:07:32,960
as a significantly more talented artist

2188
01:07:36,710 --> 01:07:34,160
than i'm ever going to be

2189
01:07:38,069 --> 01:07:36,720
but um because it's although it's one of

2190
01:07:40,069 --> 01:07:38,079
those things virgil doesn't

2191
01:07:41,589 --> 01:07:40,079
the latin doesn't translate as easily as

2192
01:07:43,190 --> 01:07:41,599
home as greek does so if you read the

2193
01:07:44,309 --> 01:07:43,200
aeneid it can come across as very

2194
01:07:46,630 --> 01:07:44,319
stilted

2195
01:07:48,150 --> 01:07:46,640
when you can read it in latin there is a

2196
01:07:49,990 --> 01:07:48,160
richness to the language but there's

2197
01:07:50,870 --> 01:07:50,000
also a subtlety because this is not an

2198
01:07:53,270 --> 01:07:50,880
epic

2199
01:07:54,150 --> 01:07:53,280
written for a genuinely heroic society

2200
01:07:56,069 --> 01:07:54,160
this is one

2201
01:07:58,069 --> 01:07:56,079
it's more like a modern novel that's

2202
01:07:59,670 --> 01:07:58,079
clever it's because you're dealing with

2203
01:08:01,109 --> 01:07:59,680
you're setting it in this ancient past

2204
01:08:02,630 --> 01:08:01,119
but actually you're dealing with

2205
01:08:04,870 --> 01:08:02,640
very hard politics that's got a lot of

2206
01:08:06,390 --> 01:08:04,880
people killed that is really the roman

2207
01:08:07,829 --> 01:08:06,400
attitude i mean the romans

2208
01:08:09,510 --> 01:08:07,839
are obviously aggressive because they

2209
01:08:11,990 --> 01:08:09,520
end up owning most of the known world

2210
01:08:13,589 --> 01:08:12,000
as far as you know that they exist they

2211
01:08:14,870 --> 01:08:13,599
don't this empire doesn't just happen

2212
01:08:16,229 --> 01:08:14,880
they don't they're not peacefully

2213
01:08:17,990 --> 01:08:16,239
defending themselves

2214
01:08:19,430 --> 01:08:18,000
they are aggressive on the other hand

2215
01:08:20,870 --> 01:08:19,440
they are

2216
01:08:22,709 --> 01:08:20,880
they're not simply aggressive and they

2217
01:08:24,309 --> 01:08:22,719
do get to the point where under augustus

2218
01:08:25,669 --> 01:08:24,319
they're deciding look we've probably got

2219
01:08:26,550 --> 01:08:25,679
all the bits of the world that are worth

2220
01:08:28,070 --> 01:08:26,560
having

2221
01:08:29,430 --> 01:08:28,080
and we don't want any more it's just

2222
01:08:31,590 --> 01:08:29,440
expensive we don't know that's

2223
01:08:32,950 --> 01:08:31,600
justification for not fighting more with

2224
01:08:35,669 --> 01:08:32,960
and there's clearly differences of

2225
01:08:36,309 --> 01:08:35,679
opinion but that is very much the roman

2226
01:08:38,789 --> 01:08:36,319
attitude

2227
01:08:39,430 --> 01:08:38,799
they don't they don't see outsiders as

2228
01:08:41,990 --> 01:08:39,440
having

2229
01:08:42,709 --> 01:08:42,000
equal rights or any right to exist and

2230
01:08:45,829 --> 01:08:42,719
they don't see

2231
01:08:47,990 --> 01:08:45,839
peace as the product of

2232
01:08:49,189 --> 01:08:48,000
coexistence and friendship and this sort

2233
01:08:51,990 --> 01:08:49,199
of thing they see

2234
01:08:53,910 --> 01:08:52,000
peace as the product of roman victory

2235
01:08:55,510 --> 01:08:53,920
and roman victory doesn't have to be go

2236
01:08:56,950 --> 01:08:55,520
out and killing everybody

2237
01:08:59,269 --> 01:08:56,960
and it doesn't have to be the romans

2238
01:08:59,590 --> 01:08:59,279
occupying everywhere but it does have to

2239
01:09:02,229 --> 01:08:59,600
be

2240
01:09:03,510 --> 01:09:02,239
total victory and permanent victory as

2241
01:09:05,430 --> 01:09:03,520
opposed to

2242
01:09:07,669 --> 01:09:05,440
what is kind of common of that era right

2243
01:09:09,749 --> 01:09:07,679
and of this era in a lot of ways

2244
01:09:10,709 --> 01:09:09,759
it's very much a sense that roman power

2245
01:09:12,470 --> 01:09:10,719
is respected

2246
01:09:13,749 --> 01:09:12,480
and that nobody will do anything you

2247
01:09:15,990 --> 01:09:13,759
don't want them to do

2248
01:09:18,149 --> 01:09:16,000
you usually don't actively want them to

2249
01:09:19,590 --> 01:09:18,159
do very much i mean they're very sort of

2250
01:09:21,269 --> 01:09:19,600
hands off in the way they run the

2251
01:09:22,550 --> 01:09:21,279
provinces and they try to get people to

2252
01:09:23,189 --> 01:09:22,560
run their own affairs as much as they

2253
01:09:24,870 --> 01:09:23,199
can

2254
01:09:26,789 --> 01:09:24,880
that's partly laziness and partly

2255
01:09:29,990 --> 01:09:26,799
meanness but they're they're also it's

2256
01:09:30,950 --> 01:09:30,000
but it's this sense that once you get to

2257
01:09:33,829 --> 01:09:30,960
become an enemy

2258
01:09:34,309 --> 01:09:33,839
you know tribes that simply look at

2259
01:09:36,390 --> 01:09:34,319
caesar's

2260
01:09:38,309 --> 01:09:36,400
envoys the wrong way become enemies and

2261
01:09:39,910 --> 01:09:38,319
there is this they are very touchy but

2262
01:09:40,950 --> 01:09:39,920
again that's not that uncommon in the

2263
01:09:43,110 --> 01:09:40,960
ancient world people in the ancient

2264
01:09:45,590 --> 01:09:43,120
world go to war

2265
01:09:46,470 --> 01:09:45,600
for almost no reason as we would

2266
01:09:48,390 --> 01:09:46,480
understand it

2267
01:09:50,149 --> 01:09:48,400
usually because they think they can and

2268
01:09:50,950 --> 01:09:50,159
it will be beneficial and there's a nice

2269
01:09:53,269 --> 01:09:50,960
story

2270
01:09:54,149 --> 01:09:53,279
nice in useful historical sense rather

2271
01:09:56,870 --> 01:09:54,159
than what happened

2272
01:09:58,709 --> 01:09:56,880
of a roman army advancing in asia minor

2273
01:10:00,310 --> 01:09:58,719
in the early 2nd century bc and the

2274
01:10:01,030 --> 01:10:00,320
advance guard gets ahead of the main

2275
01:10:02,870 --> 01:10:01,040
column

2276
01:10:04,310 --> 01:10:02,880
the locals see them think oh there's not

2277
01:10:06,709 --> 01:10:04,320
very many of them they don't look that

2278
01:10:08,709 --> 01:10:06,719
well equipped let's attack them

2279
01:10:10,709 --> 01:10:08,719
they do this then the whole roman army

2280
01:10:12,550 --> 01:10:10,719
turns up and they suddenly think oops

2281
01:10:14,229 --> 01:10:12,560
not such a good plan there's a lot more

2282
01:10:15,750 --> 01:10:14,239
of them and then they said an end voice

2283
01:10:17,430 --> 01:10:15,760
saying sorry we didn't realize you were

2284
01:10:19,590 --> 01:10:17,440
strong can we be friends

2285
01:10:21,510 --> 01:10:19,600
and the romans say fine give us so much

2286
01:10:23,510 --> 01:10:21,520
grain give us so much money

2287
01:10:25,510 --> 01:10:23,520
and that's we'll forget all about it

2288
01:10:27,189 --> 01:10:25,520
they sort of understand this sense that

2289
01:10:28,709 --> 01:10:27,199
if you can dominate others if you can

2290
01:10:30,790 --> 01:10:28,719
rob others you will

2291
01:10:33,110 --> 01:10:30,800
and that therefore so it is this very

2292
01:10:35,110 --> 01:10:33,120
dangerous very predatory world

2293
01:10:37,910 --> 01:10:35,120
where the romans make sure they are the

2294
01:10:39,990 --> 01:10:37,920
biggest baddest predator out there

2295
01:10:41,830 --> 01:10:40,000
um and they do want their wars to be

2296
01:10:43,990 --> 01:10:41,840
perm they do want to

2297
01:10:45,910 --> 01:10:44,000
um make sure you don't fight them again

2298
01:10:48,070 --> 01:10:45,920
so you either cease to exist

2299
01:10:50,310 --> 01:10:48,080
or you are very much a subordinate ally

2300
01:10:51,669 --> 01:10:50,320
and friend that will do what you're told

2301
01:10:53,189 --> 01:10:51,679
which means they don't give up because

2302
01:10:55,030 --> 01:10:53,199
they expect wars to be fought that way

2303
01:10:55,830 --> 01:10:55,040
so they are far more serious and they

2304
01:10:57,750 --> 01:10:55,840
endure

2305
01:10:59,990 --> 01:10:57,760
the third of hannibal say the appalling

2306
01:11:00,310 --> 01:11:00,000
losses here the carthaginians inflict on

2307
01:11:02,550 --> 01:11:00,320
them

2308
01:11:03,990 --> 01:11:02,560
and they won't give in whereas most

2309
01:11:05,669 --> 01:11:04,000
normal ancient societies would have

2310
01:11:07,110 --> 01:11:05,679
given in negotiating then thought well

2311
01:11:08,310 --> 01:11:07,120
maybe 20 30 years time we'll have

2312
01:11:11,430 --> 01:11:08,320
another go

2313
01:11:12,870 --> 01:11:11,440
the romans it's life or death and

2314
01:11:14,790 --> 01:11:12,880
one thing however to bear in mind with

2315
01:11:17,910 --> 01:11:14,800
the sort of divide and rule um

2316
01:11:20,550 --> 01:11:17,920
concept which is clearly how they work

2317
01:11:22,149 --> 01:11:20,560
what's very striking is wherever the

2318
01:11:23,990 --> 01:11:22,159
romans go

2319
01:11:25,750 --> 01:11:24,000
some local leaders some local

2320
01:11:27,510 --> 01:11:25,760
communities welcome them

2321
01:11:29,030 --> 01:11:27,520
and some see them as an opportunity

2322
01:11:30,950 --> 01:11:29,040
rather than a threat because

2323
01:11:32,630 --> 01:11:30,960
the people that the enemy they really

2324
01:11:33,430 --> 01:11:32,640
fear and the ones they really hate and

2325
01:11:35,510 --> 01:11:33,440
care about

2326
01:11:37,430 --> 01:11:35,520
are the close neighbors the ones you

2327
01:11:39,590 --> 01:11:37,440
fought for generation after generation

2328
01:11:41,830 --> 01:11:39,600
or the ones you can see expanding

2329
01:11:43,990 --> 01:11:41,840
the romans are they arrive and you're

2330
01:11:44,790 --> 01:11:44,000
faced with a choice do i fight them do i

2331
01:11:50,470 --> 01:11:44,800
join them

2332
01:11:51,350 --> 01:11:50,480
they'll come the romans will help them

2333
01:11:54,709 --> 01:11:51,360
so

2334
01:11:56,630 --> 01:11:54,719
instance that never fight the romans and

2335
01:11:58,870 --> 01:11:56,640
that's true in every province

2336
01:12:00,550 --> 01:11:58,880
so it's it isn't this simple sort of

2337
01:12:02,630 --> 01:12:00,560
resistance against expanding

2338
01:12:04,229 --> 01:12:02,640
it's a lot more complicated but the

2339
01:12:05,910 --> 01:12:04,239
ancient world is very divided in the

2340
01:12:07,910 --> 01:12:05,920
first place and even within

2341
01:12:09,750 --> 01:12:07,920
individual states there are always

2342
01:12:11,110 --> 01:12:09,760
leaders who are thinking well

2343
01:12:12,470 --> 01:12:11,120
i could be in charge i should be the

2344
01:12:13,430 --> 01:12:12,480
chief or i should be the king rather

2345
01:12:15,590 --> 01:12:13,440
than him

2346
01:12:17,030 --> 01:12:15,600
and you know you'll have this um i'm

2347
01:12:17,830 --> 01:12:17,040
about to write about it at the moment

2348
01:12:20,310 --> 01:12:17,840
where

2349
01:12:22,550 --> 01:12:20,320
you get lots of parthian princes are

2350
01:12:24,390 --> 01:12:22,560
sent to rome for an education

2351
01:12:26,390 --> 01:12:24,400
and every now and again there'll be a

2352
01:12:27,990 --> 01:12:26,400
request can we have one back please by a

2353
01:12:29,750 --> 01:12:28,000
faction within the empire

2354
01:12:32,229 --> 01:12:29,760
now most of these people who've lived in

2355
01:12:33,030 --> 01:12:32,239
rome never quite seem to make it for

2356
01:12:35,350 --> 01:12:33,040
very long

2357
01:12:36,550 --> 01:12:35,360
when they go back as king and that might

2358
01:12:37,750 --> 01:12:36,560
be because the people who've asked for

2359
01:12:39,430 --> 01:12:37,760
them aren't as powerful as they think

2360
01:12:40,950 --> 01:12:39,440
they are or it might be tacitus claims

2361
01:12:42,390 --> 01:12:40,960
they've just become too roman

2362
01:12:43,750 --> 01:12:42,400
you know they're no longer thinking like

2363
01:12:45,270 --> 01:12:43,760
apartheid nobleman they don't like

2364
01:12:46,870 --> 01:12:45,280
hunting they don't like feasting

2365
01:12:48,470 --> 01:12:46,880
they want to read books instead you know

2366
01:12:50,709 --> 01:12:48,480
what sort of king is that

2367
01:12:52,390 --> 01:12:50,719
but the difference is is that you're not

2368
01:12:54,070 --> 01:12:52,400
getting romans going

2369
01:12:56,149 --> 01:12:54,080
to other countries and other kingdoms

2370
01:12:58,790 --> 01:12:56,159
even parthia that's so powerful

2371
01:12:59,590 --> 01:12:58,800
and waiting to come back the romans have

2372
01:13:02,790 --> 01:12:59,600
this this great

2373
01:13:03,669 --> 01:13:02,800
and of course they the truly remarkable

2374
01:13:05,590 --> 01:13:03,679
thing about

2375
01:13:07,189 --> 01:13:05,600
the the romans is their ability to

2376
01:13:08,229 --> 01:13:07,199
absorb other people and to make them

2377
01:13:10,709 --> 01:13:08,239
roman

2378
01:13:12,390 --> 01:13:10,719
and whereas you can say you know the the

2379
01:13:13,990 --> 01:13:12,400
sense the the experiment the experience

2380
01:13:15,510 --> 01:13:14,000
of america has to be to bring people

2381
01:13:16,709 --> 01:13:15,520
from all over the world and make them

2382
01:13:18,550 --> 01:13:16,719
american

2383
01:13:19,910 --> 01:13:18,560
most empires have gone and there's very

2384
01:13:22,630 --> 01:13:19,920
much remained an elite

2385
01:13:23,430 --> 01:13:22,640
and then the provinces the conquered but

2386
01:13:26,149 --> 01:13:23,440
the romans

2387
01:13:27,910 --> 01:13:26,159
turned particularly the better off but

2388
01:13:31,669 --> 01:13:27,920
quite a large section

2389
01:13:33,590 --> 01:13:31,679
of britain of gaul of spain i mean the

2390
01:13:34,709 --> 01:13:33,600
syria so you could start to have

2391
01:13:36,390 --> 01:13:34,719
emperors like

2392
01:13:38,390 --> 01:13:36,400
septimius everest from north africa

2393
01:13:39,990 --> 01:13:38,400
hadrian trajan from spain

2394
01:13:41,669 --> 01:13:40,000
philip the arab you know all of these

2395
01:13:42,070 --> 01:13:41,679
people that was one of the problems that

2396
01:13:44,709 --> 01:13:42,080
you

2397
01:13:46,709 --> 01:13:44,719
face with jewish society is that

2398
01:13:49,110 --> 01:13:46,719
particularly as second temple

2399
01:13:50,870 --> 01:13:49,120
judaism has developed whereas in the

2400
01:13:52,470 --> 01:13:50,880
past lots of

2401
01:13:53,830 --> 01:13:52,480
people jews have gone off and

2402
01:13:54,630 --> 01:13:53,840
volunteered fought in other people's

2403
01:13:55,910 --> 01:13:54,640
armies

2404
01:13:58,630 --> 01:13:55,920
and that's a very good way into the

2405
01:14:00,390 --> 01:13:58,640
roman system there are now taboos that

2406
01:14:02,229 --> 01:14:00,400
mean you can't do that

2407
01:14:03,750 --> 01:14:02,239
and the romans struggle with this idea

2408
01:14:05,669 --> 01:14:03,760
and they struggle with how to deal with

2409
01:14:07,590 --> 01:14:05,679
a group that can't

2410
01:14:08,950 --> 01:14:07,600
can't sort of basically as i say tick

2411
01:14:11,910 --> 01:14:08,960
the boxes of being roman

2412
01:14:13,110 --> 01:14:11,920
perform sacrifices to jupiter to the

2413
01:14:14,550 --> 01:14:13,120
imperial cult

2414
01:14:16,310 --> 01:14:14,560
and then go and believe whatever they

2415
01:14:17,990 --> 01:14:16,320
like in their home and in their

2416
01:14:19,510 --> 01:14:18,000
their house and do whatever they like so

2417
01:14:21,430 --> 01:14:19,520
that's one of the reasons for this

2418
01:14:23,350 --> 01:14:21,440
friction that the aristocracy can't be

2419
01:14:25,669 --> 01:14:23,360
absorbed and become roman

2420
01:14:26,390 --> 01:14:25,679
and people like herod who obviously are

2421
01:14:27,990 --> 01:14:26,400
you know

2422
01:14:29,669 --> 01:14:28,000
ambiguous figures in the first place but

2423
01:14:30,149 --> 01:14:29,679
they're trying to straddle this sense of

2424
01:14:31,990 --> 01:14:30,159
being

2425
01:14:33,590 --> 01:14:32,000
a king for the jews not just in their

2426
01:14:36,709 --> 01:14:33,600
kingdom but beyond

2427
01:14:38,229 --> 01:14:36,719
but also a roman and giving temples and

2428
01:14:39,350 --> 01:14:38,239
endowing you know the games in greece

2429
01:14:42,790 --> 01:14:39,360
and this sort of thing and

2430
01:14:46,229 --> 01:14:42,800
advising a gripper and it's it's a very

2431
01:14:49,110 --> 01:14:46,239
hard tight rope to walk but it is

2432
01:14:50,709 --> 01:14:49,120
clearly the romans were good at ruling

2433
01:14:51,669 --> 01:14:50,719
at making this empire work because it

2434
01:14:54,550 --> 01:14:51,679
does last

2435
01:14:56,470 --> 01:14:54,560
a very long time and it falls because it

2436
01:15:00,070 --> 01:14:56,480
rots away from the inside and this

2437
01:15:00,950 --> 01:15:00,080
i don't buy the idea that simply because

2438
01:15:03,510 --> 01:15:00,960
of wider

2439
01:15:04,630 --> 01:15:03,520
demographic economic social factors you

2440
01:15:06,229 --> 01:15:04,640
know there was just there was just a

2441
01:15:07,510 --> 01:15:06,239
need for this big empire and it just

2442
01:15:09,270 --> 01:15:07,520
sort of happened

2443
01:15:11,350 --> 01:15:09,280
this was actively built and preserved

2444
01:15:14,149 --> 01:15:11,360
for a very long time and then

2445
01:15:15,430 --> 01:15:14,159
let go as well so it's it's it's a

2446
01:15:17,030 --> 01:15:15,440
complicated story

2447
01:15:19,030 --> 01:15:17,040
that's wonderful answer and you know

2448
01:15:22,390 --> 01:15:19,040
even in the last part of the

2449
01:15:25,030 --> 01:15:22,400
elites of judea in them straddling line

2450
01:15:26,790 --> 01:15:25,040
it's no different for every every other

2451
01:15:28,709 --> 01:15:26,800
barbarian group they're all doing the

2452
01:15:31,189 --> 01:15:28,719
same thing in the way that you just

2453
01:15:31,830 --> 01:15:31,199
so beautifully kind of described hey so

2454
01:15:35,350 --> 01:15:31,840
one more

2455
01:15:37,510 --> 01:15:35,360
kind of topic roman way to me it seems

2456
01:15:38,229 --> 01:15:37,520
so obvious both in our time and in the

2457
01:15:40,390 --> 01:15:38,239
roman time

2458
01:15:41,750 --> 01:15:40,400
and that is that social engineering is

2459
01:15:43,990 --> 01:15:41,760
always in play

2460
01:15:45,110 --> 01:15:44,000
controlling the narrative controlling

2461
01:15:48,390 --> 01:15:45,120
the beliefs

2462
01:15:51,430 --> 01:15:48,400
the aspirations of the people

2463
01:15:53,030 --> 01:15:51,440
is always front and center because it's

2464
01:15:54,550 --> 01:15:53,040
part and parcel what we do it's called

2465
01:15:56,630 --> 01:15:54,560
governance it's called

2466
01:15:57,830 --> 01:15:56,640
if you don't do it someone else will do

2467
01:15:59,510 --> 01:15:57,840
it better and then

2468
01:16:01,590 --> 01:15:59,520
they will assassinate you and all that

2469
01:16:03,750 --> 01:16:01,600
thing why do we sometimes kind of want

2470
01:16:06,870 --> 01:16:03,760
to push against the idea that

2471
01:16:09,990 --> 01:16:06,880
this parapolitical subterfuge

2472
01:16:13,030 --> 01:16:10,000
is always in play and we it is now

2473
01:16:14,229 --> 01:16:13,040
and it was then it's i suppose it

2474
01:16:15,910 --> 01:16:14,239
depends on

2475
01:16:19,350 --> 01:16:15,920
what the group in power trying to do in

2476
01:16:22,310 --> 01:16:19,360
your own views and reactions to it but

2477
01:16:24,070 --> 01:16:22,320
it's as with anything else to be really

2478
01:16:25,750 --> 01:16:24,080
successful the best thing is to

2479
01:16:26,790 --> 01:16:25,760
encourage people to do something they

2480
01:16:28,310 --> 01:16:26,800
really want

2481
01:16:31,030 --> 01:16:28,320
or that they get something they really

2482
01:16:31,510 --> 01:16:31,040
like from it so you know with augustus

2483
01:16:33,430 --> 01:16:31,520
it's

2484
01:16:34,630 --> 01:16:33,440
there's this clear revolution in the way

2485
01:16:35,669 --> 01:16:34,640
people are thinking in the way they will

2486
01:16:37,669 --> 01:16:35,679
accept

2487
01:16:38,870 --> 01:16:37,679
profound change in the way the republic

2488
01:16:41,910 --> 01:16:38,880
works

2489
01:16:43,590 --> 01:16:41,920
classes you know he starts to

2490
01:16:45,590 --> 01:16:43,600
suddenly for instance the equitas this

2491
01:16:48,070 --> 01:16:45,600
this social class below the senate

2492
01:16:49,350 --> 01:16:48,080
from augustus onwards has a far more

2493
01:16:50,149 --> 01:16:49,360
prominent role than they've ever had

2494
01:16:52,630 --> 01:16:50,159
before

2495
01:16:53,750 --> 01:16:52,640
adrian touch on this cloaking change

2496
01:16:55,910 --> 01:16:53,760
with tradition

2497
01:16:57,430 --> 01:16:55,920
this isn't change this is renewal and

2498
01:16:59,030 --> 01:16:57,440
that's social engineering that's social

2499
01:17:01,510 --> 01:16:59,040
engineering

2500
01:17:03,030 --> 01:17:01,520
it's and it's because people are the

2501
01:17:04,950 --> 01:17:03,040
same that again you've

2502
01:17:06,310 --> 01:17:04,960
as i say it's like i try to sell someone

2503
01:17:07,510 --> 01:17:06,320
something persuade them it's what they

2504
01:17:08,950 --> 01:17:07,520
really need or what they've always

2505
01:17:10,470 --> 01:17:08,960
wanted even if they didn't realize

2506
01:17:12,310 --> 01:17:10,480
that's what they wanted

2507
01:17:13,590 --> 01:17:12,320
it's there it's the way governments work

2508
01:17:15,590 --> 01:17:13,600
but it's

2509
01:17:16,630 --> 01:17:15,600
it's often a two-way process because

2510
01:17:18,310 --> 01:17:16,640
there is an element

2511
01:17:20,550 --> 01:17:18,320
of what your population is doing and

2512
01:17:22,310 --> 01:17:20,560
what it wants its government to do

2513
01:17:24,070 --> 01:17:22,320
and it might be less organized and

2514
01:17:26,149 --> 01:17:24,080
focused but some of these moves it's

2515
01:17:28,950 --> 01:17:26,159
often very hard to tell

2516
01:17:30,390 --> 01:17:28,960
where the movement starts and where the

2517
01:17:32,310 --> 01:17:30,400
government decides actually this is

2518
01:17:34,310 --> 01:17:32,320
going on let's ride it

2519
01:17:37,110 --> 01:17:34,320
let's see where this takes us and let's

2520
01:17:39,030 --> 01:17:37,120
make sure that it benefits us

2521
01:17:40,390 --> 01:17:39,040
rather than necessarily going and sort

2522
01:17:40,950 --> 01:17:40,400
of you know basically sending people

2523
01:17:42,390 --> 01:17:40,960
around say

2524
01:17:45,270 --> 01:17:42,400
hey this would be a good idea wouldn't

2525
01:17:47,830 --> 01:17:45,280
it you know proactive versus reactive

2526
01:17:49,430 --> 01:17:47,840
i i get that confused all the time it

2527
01:17:50,709 --> 01:17:49,440
clearly made political sense for

2528
01:17:53,189 --> 01:17:50,719
constantine

2529
01:17:54,310 --> 01:17:53,199
to become christian doesn't mean it

2530
01:17:56,790 --> 01:17:54,320
wasn't a profound

2531
01:17:57,990 --> 01:17:56,800
emotional thing for him as well and it

2532
01:18:00,709 --> 01:17:58,000
does mean that there's enough

2533
01:18:02,390 --> 01:18:00,719
people out there who you know their

2534
01:18:03,910 --> 01:18:02,400
support is worthwhile so

2535
01:18:05,669 --> 01:18:03,920
the idea that christians are a fringe

2536
01:18:06,950 --> 01:18:05,679
group until suddenly he comes along it's

2537
01:18:07,830 --> 01:18:06,960
official religion and everybody's

2538
01:18:11,030 --> 01:18:07,840
christian

2539
01:18:12,229 --> 01:18:11,040
doesn't make sense either and often

2540
01:18:15,189 --> 01:18:12,239
we're thinking in far

2541
01:18:17,270 --> 01:18:15,199
too theological away because we think

2542
01:18:19,030 --> 01:18:17,280
you're either a christian or you're not

2543
01:18:20,870 --> 01:18:19,040
if you've come from a polytheistic

2544
01:18:23,110 --> 01:18:20,880
tradition where you have this

2545
01:18:25,750 --> 01:18:23,120
different sense of spirituality then

2546
01:18:26,709 --> 01:18:25,760
adding in jesus or this jewish god as an

2547
01:18:29,669 --> 01:18:26,719
extra

2548
01:18:31,189 --> 01:18:29,679
deity is fine that's perfectly you know

2549
01:18:33,189 --> 01:18:31,199
that you can do that it doesn't mean you

2550
01:18:34,390 --> 01:18:33,199
don't sacrifice to dionysus as well

2551
01:18:35,750 --> 01:18:34,400
it doesn't mean you might sometimes

2552
01:18:36,870 --> 01:18:35,760
think actually there's bits of them that

2553
01:18:40,070 --> 01:18:36,880
are the same

2554
01:18:42,870 --> 01:18:40,080
we can be far too s structural about

2555
01:18:43,910 --> 01:18:42,880
it and again forget the but usually

2556
01:18:46,229 --> 01:18:43,920
these things work

2557
01:18:48,070 --> 01:18:46,239
because it's sort of almost a meeting

2558
01:18:49,750 --> 01:18:48,080
somewhere in the middle

2559
01:18:52,070 --> 01:18:49,760
and that's why i think sometimes if

2560
01:18:54,470 --> 01:18:52,080
people try to force drastic

2561
01:18:55,669 --> 01:18:54,480
change through social engineering and

2562
01:18:57,510 --> 01:18:55,679
they do it clumsily

2563
01:18:59,350 --> 01:18:57,520
as has happened with various revolutions

2564
01:19:01,270 --> 01:18:59,360
it can go badly wrong or it ends up

2565
01:19:01,910 --> 01:19:01,280
being imposed by force which often then

2566
01:19:04,149 --> 01:19:01,920
turns

2567
01:19:05,830 --> 01:19:04,159
what might have been a well-meant idea

2568
01:19:06,630 --> 01:19:05,840
into something that becomes far more

2569
01:19:09,030 --> 01:19:06,640
sinister

2570
01:19:10,310 --> 01:19:09,040
so it is a two-way process it isn't

2571
01:19:12,070 --> 01:19:10,320
simply

2572
01:19:14,310 --> 01:19:12,080
from the top down i think that there's

2573
01:19:17,350 --> 01:19:14,320
there's a more of a mix there

2574
01:19:19,430 --> 01:19:17,360
fantastic so dr goldsworthy

2575
01:19:21,430 --> 01:19:19,440
in the time that we have left and you've

2576
01:19:24,470 --> 01:19:21,440
been so incredibly generous with

2577
01:19:26,950 --> 01:19:24,480
your time with us today tell us about

2578
01:19:28,390 --> 01:19:26,960
the books tell us about the ones that we

2579
01:19:30,070 --> 01:19:28,400
see up on the screen we haven't really

2580
01:19:33,510 --> 01:19:30,080
talked a lot about them

2581
01:19:36,310 --> 01:19:33,520
in detail paxa romana is fantastic

2582
01:19:38,229 --> 01:19:36,320
so is augustus and caesar and some of

2583
01:19:41,510 --> 01:19:38,239
the other ones and some of your

2584
01:19:44,550 --> 01:19:41,520
fiction as well what would you

2585
01:19:46,630 --> 01:19:44,560
direct someone to who is

2586
01:19:48,229 --> 01:19:46,640
kind of new to your work but maybe is

2587
01:19:50,790 --> 01:19:48,239
interested in what you're

2588
01:19:53,350 --> 01:19:50,800
what you have to say so much depends on

2589
01:19:55,270 --> 01:19:53,360
on what you like i don't expect

2590
01:19:56,390 --> 01:19:55,280
one person to necessarily like all the

2591
01:19:58,070 --> 01:19:56,400
different things i write

2592
01:20:00,070 --> 01:19:58,080
my books reflect very much the sort of

2593
01:20:02,390 --> 01:20:00,080
things i like to read you know i

2594
01:20:03,590 --> 01:20:02,400
in in the end i'm writing for myself as

2595
01:20:05,669 --> 01:20:03,600
an audience they're the books i'd love

2596
01:20:07,430 --> 01:20:05,679
to have but they aren't out there

2597
01:20:09,189 --> 01:20:07,440
um and that's true both of the fiction

2598
01:20:10,550 --> 01:20:09,199
the novels the stories as it is of the

2599
01:20:15,990 --> 01:20:10,560
the non-fiction

2600
01:20:17,750 --> 01:20:16,000
probably one of the biographies are

2601
01:20:19,750 --> 01:20:17,760
either caesar or augustus or anthony

2602
01:20:22,390 --> 01:20:19,760
cleopatra if you want more of a mix of

2603
01:20:23,669 --> 01:20:22,400
something more hellenistic more um not

2604
01:20:26,629 --> 01:20:23,679
simply roman

2605
01:20:28,229 --> 01:20:26,639
um they're a good starting place

2606
01:20:30,310 --> 01:20:28,239
something like pax ramana talks about

2607
01:20:32,310 --> 01:20:30,320
how the empire worked

2608
01:20:33,510 --> 01:20:32,320
was there really peace how did the front

2609
01:20:35,910 --> 01:20:33,520
is function it's it's

2610
01:20:36,629 --> 01:20:35,920
it helps i hope you can read it without

2611
01:20:37,990 --> 01:20:36,639
having

2612
01:20:39,910 --> 01:20:38,000
prior knowledge of roman history but it

2613
01:20:42,470 --> 01:20:39,920
helps if you have a bit

2614
01:20:43,910 --> 01:20:42,480
the story of an individual and a leader

2615
01:20:45,830 --> 01:20:43,920
like augustus or caesar

2616
01:20:47,669 --> 01:20:45,840
is often a more accessible way if you

2617
01:20:48,950 --> 01:20:47,679
want to start because again you can just

2618
01:20:50,870 --> 01:20:48,960
look at it as this is how

2619
01:20:52,629 --> 01:20:50,880
a politician how a military leader might

2620
01:20:53,910 --> 01:20:52,639
function and hopefully there'll be

2621
01:20:54,629 --> 01:20:53,920
enough in there to tell you well this is

2622
01:20:56,070 --> 01:20:54,639
how it works

2623
01:20:57,669 --> 01:20:56,080
for the romans and this is how we know

2624
01:20:59,830 --> 01:20:57,679
about it this is what we guess

2625
01:21:00,870 --> 01:20:59,840
um the force the the novels only just

2626
01:21:03,030 --> 01:21:00,880
come out in in

2627
01:21:04,470 --> 01:21:03,040
britain a couple of weeks ago and the i

2628
01:21:05,590 --> 01:21:04,480
think the kindle might be available in

2629
01:21:07,430 --> 01:21:05,600
the us already but the

2630
01:21:09,189 --> 01:21:07,440
the printed book won't be for a month or

2631
01:21:11,030 --> 01:21:09,199
two i think that's august that's

2632
01:21:12,629 --> 01:21:11,040
that's an adventure story i basically

2633
01:21:13,830 --> 01:21:12,639
see them the roman novels have written

2634
01:21:15,270 --> 01:21:13,840
the vindelander series that they're

2635
01:21:17,990 --> 01:21:15,280
basically westerns but

2636
01:21:19,270 --> 01:21:18,000
set in the early late first early second

2637
01:21:22,470 --> 01:21:19,280
century a.d

2638
01:21:24,229 --> 01:21:22,480
um and it's meant to be escapism i've

2639
01:21:27,350 --> 01:21:24,239
tried to make the world

2640
01:21:28,709 --> 01:21:27,360
as accurate as possible and as real to

2641
01:21:30,310 --> 01:21:28,719
that and it's a great

2642
01:21:32,229 --> 01:21:30,320
writing a novel is a wonderful thing for

2643
01:21:33,590 --> 01:21:32,239
a historian because you can play around

2644
01:21:35,430 --> 01:21:33,600
with ideas

2645
01:21:38,070 --> 01:21:35,440
because you've got to make your world

2646
01:21:40,070 --> 01:21:38,080
complete as a historian i can say

2647
01:21:41,750 --> 01:21:40,080
we don't know this you know the evidence

2648
01:21:43,030 --> 01:21:41,760
is so much and then there is a gap we

2649
01:21:45,030 --> 01:21:43,040
simply don't know but

2650
01:21:46,070 --> 01:21:45,040
in a novel you can't simply open a door

2651
01:21:47,990 --> 01:21:46,080
onto nothing

2652
01:21:49,750 --> 01:21:48,000
at least not in this sort of novel and

2653
01:21:51,590 --> 01:21:49,760
you've so i've got to make a world

2654
01:21:52,470 --> 01:21:51,600
that's plausible that fits with all the

2655
01:21:54,229 --> 01:21:52,480
evidence

2656
01:21:55,510 --> 01:21:54,239
but goes beyond that because there's so

2657
01:21:57,270 --> 01:21:55,520
much we don't know so

2658
01:21:59,669 --> 01:21:57,280
those are fun for me but i i consider

2659
01:22:01,830 --> 01:21:59,679
those as i say it's escapism if you want

2660
01:22:02,709 --> 01:22:01,840
an adventure story a rattling good yarn

2661
01:22:05,030 --> 01:22:02,719
that sort of thing

2662
01:22:06,550 --> 01:22:05,040
that's what those are meant to be um the

2663
01:22:08,790 --> 01:22:06,560
books are for their i hope

2664
01:22:10,310 --> 01:22:08,800
anyone who's interested enough to say

2665
01:22:12,070 --> 01:22:10,320
pick up the book on julius caesar to

2666
01:22:13,990 --> 01:22:12,080
want to know more about him

2667
01:22:15,430 --> 01:22:14,000
will even if they've got no prior

2668
01:22:16,870 --> 01:22:15,440
knowledge of history or the ancient

2669
01:22:18,310 --> 01:22:16,880
world we'll be able to follow the book

2670
01:22:19,270 --> 01:22:18,320
understand the book get something from

2671
01:22:20,709 --> 01:22:19,280
it and

2672
01:22:23,110 --> 01:22:20,719
you know read what when all said and

2673
01:22:24,950 --> 01:22:23,120
done these are remarkable stories

2674
01:22:26,149 --> 01:22:24,960
and though these men did some terrible

2675
01:22:27,830 --> 01:22:26,159
terrible things and though

2676
01:22:30,629 --> 01:22:27,840
you know people like actually cleopatra

2677
01:22:33,669 --> 01:22:30,639
they weren't the nicest people around

2678
01:22:35,189 --> 01:22:33,679
nevertheless there is looking at people

2679
01:22:37,030 --> 01:22:35,199
they also lived in extremely difficult

2680
01:22:38,070 --> 01:22:37,040
dangerous times so you have sympathy for

2681
01:22:39,830 --> 01:22:38,080
them as well

2682
01:22:41,350 --> 01:22:39,840
um but it's just trying to understand

2683
01:22:42,950 --> 01:22:41,360
their names we know maybe we know the

2684
01:22:44,390 --> 01:22:42,960
shakespeare play maybe we've you know

2685
01:22:45,669 --> 01:22:44,400
read it at school or seen it on the

2686
01:22:47,030 --> 01:22:45,679
stage

2687
01:22:49,189 --> 01:22:47,040
this is trying to say well what's the

2688
01:22:51,270 --> 01:22:49,199
reality behind it and how you know how

2689
01:22:52,550 --> 01:22:51,280
do the two match up so that's

2690
01:22:54,149 --> 01:22:52,560
that's what i try to do as i say these

2691
01:22:54,790 --> 01:22:54,159
are these are books i would like to read

2692
01:22:57,830 --> 01:22:54,800
so

2693
01:22:59,669 --> 01:22:57,840
because they're not there i write them

2694
01:23:01,750 --> 01:22:59,679
you like to read them and i like to read

2695
01:23:03,350 --> 01:23:01,760
them too and i think our audience i hope

2696
01:23:05,590 --> 01:23:03,360
you do check them out

2697
01:23:07,270 --> 01:23:05,600
and again you know kindle unlimited you

2698
01:23:09,350 --> 01:23:07,280
can get a start and then you won't be

2699
01:23:10,470 --> 01:23:09,360
able to stop that's the only problem i

2700
01:23:13,750 --> 01:23:10,480
see

2701
01:23:14,310 --> 01:23:13,760
is that this guy the writing it sucks

2702
01:23:17,430 --> 01:23:14,320
you in

2703
01:23:17,990 --> 01:23:17,440
and and you will become a fan very

2704
01:23:20,070 --> 01:23:18,000
quickly

2705
01:23:21,990 --> 01:23:20,080
and then the other thing is to have this

2706
01:23:24,310 --> 01:23:22,000
interview to know that this is someone

2707
01:23:25,669 --> 01:23:24,320
who really cares about the way that

2708
01:23:28,629 --> 01:23:25,679
history is done

2709
01:23:30,070 --> 01:23:28,639
i think adds a greater depth i i felt

2710
01:23:32,229 --> 01:23:30,080
that was the case

2711
01:23:34,310 --> 01:23:32,239
in reading the books but hearing that

2712
01:23:36,950 --> 01:23:34,320
today just really makes me

2713
01:23:38,390 --> 01:23:36,960
even more of a fan of your work so it's

2714
01:23:40,709 --> 01:23:38,400
been an absolutely terrific

2715
01:23:41,669 --> 01:23:40,719
opportunity having you on and thanks so

2716
01:23:43,270 --> 01:23:41,679
much

2717
01:23:45,750 --> 01:23:43,280
thank you for inviting me it's been fun

2718
01:23:47,669 --> 01:23:45,760
to do thanks again to dr adrian

2719
01:23:49,510 --> 01:23:47,679
goldsworthy for joining me today on

2720
01:23:52,709 --> 01:23:49,520
skeptico the one question

2721
01:23:54,709 --> 01:23:52,719
i'd tee up from this interview is and i

2722
01:23:57,750 --> 01:23:54,719
kind of hinted at it at the beginning

2723
01:24:01,110 --> 01:23:57,760
what do you make of the state of history

2724
01:24:02,709 --> 01:24:01,120
as an academic discipline we talk a lot

2725
01:24:05,669 --> 01:24:02,719
about science

2726
01:24:06,870 --> 01:24:05,679
how does history in particularly the the

2727
01:24:09,669 --> 01:24:06,880
way that history

2728
01:24:11,590 --> 01:24:09,679
seems to be being done how does that

2729
01:24:14,229 --> 01:24:11,600
factor into your personal

2730
01:24:14,870 --> 01:24:14,239
confidence in what we're being told

2731
01:24:18,310 --> 01:24:14,880
about the

2732
01:24:20,950 --> 01:24:18,320
history that's being written right now

2733
01:24:21,910 --> 01:24:20,960
we're living in some very historic times

2734
01:24:25,430 --> 01:24:21,920
as well as

2735
01:24:27,669 --> 01:24:25,440
about this ancient history as always

2736
01:24:29,350 --> 01:24:27,679
i'd love to get your thoughts on any of

2737
01:24:31,110 --> 01:24:29,360
this track me down in the skeptical

2738
01:24:33,990 --> 01:24:31,120
forum send me an email

2739
01:24:36,390 --> 01:24:34,000
whatever works for you i do have i think

2740
01:24:38,149 --> 01:24:36,400
some really good shows coming up stay

2741
01:24:42,830 --> 01:24:38,159
with me for all of that

2742
01:24:49,380 --> 01:24:42,840
until next time take care and bye for